Work in Progress - Conquests of Might and Magic III

[Eclipse4449]

Any ideas on how I should implement naval ships into this mod?

In Heroes III, there was only 1 type of ship, and the ship simply carried your army. If 2 ships attacked each other, it was the units onboard that fougt, and not the naval vessels themselves.

Should I have only 1 type of ship that is used only to transport troops (no attack value)? Or should I give the ship combat capabilities? Should I expand the ship line to make naval more interesting?

The amount of units ships will carry is undecided at this time, I was thinking about 7 units.

Tom

I don know Im just guessing but could you make the ship an Army but also give it the ability to be unloaded as well as load and uncheck upgrade

 

[nick0515]

I think my preference would just be to have transports only with no attack value, as naval warfare wasn't really a part of the original game.

 

[Eclipse4449]

Yes you might be right, but ship to ship battles did occur. In the original game a ship was neutral and anyone could board it unless your flag was on it. With a Galley acting as an Army just recently unloaded could give you or rather an enemy a chance to claim it and board it that is if the right boxes were checked

 

[tom2050]

I don know Im just guessing but could you make the ship an Army but also give it the ability to be unloaded as well as load and uncheck upgrade

I didn't think the AI knew how to use ships/air power as Armies, I think the Army unit for AI is limited to land only... I remember seeing something somewhere where it was tried and is possible, but perhaps the AI didn't know how to use it ??

Perhaps if the transport ship has hidden nationality? Could it be boarded by troops that do not own it? (I'm pretty sure not, land units cannot attack naval ships).

I think my preference would just be to have transports only with no attack value, as naval warfare wasn't really a part of the original game.

Do you think there would be a problem with transports only? Being that human player could essentially blockade cities with no fear of retaliation (unless the AI can target ships eventually with a Spell). That was my one worry. Land units won't have lethal naval bombard, but a few spells will.

Tom

 

[nick0515]

Also re the armies/boats idea you can't unload armies normally even if you could make a naval unit an army. Though there is the upgrade-army-unload method, but again probably not AI compatible.

I don't think that would be a big problem. I mean if a human player chooses to use their ships in such a manner it will only make their own gaming experience more borring. In short I think not many people would do that. You could give the transports attack values but then people would have to build a lot more ships to protect their transports. Thinking about naval warfair just doesn't seem to fit with HoMM3 for me personally. Having said that I'm sure I'll still enjoy the game just as much if you deside to include ships with attack values.

It just occurred to me, what if the AI does what you said and accidentally blockades people. I guess it wouldn't though as it doesn't leave it's transports sitting out in the open.

 

[Eclipse4449]

Its cool I didn't know if the boat/army would work it was just a guess

 

[tom2050]

Well, there is the scuttle boat spell, so along with other units able to attack a ship (along with the Fort/Castles defenses) that is roaming around right by the shoreline, it may not be so good for a player to do so anyways; as this will leave the boat easy prey for the spell.

I suppose if the boats have 0 offense and 0 defense, the scuttle boat spell will Always hit (or hit very often), so it will have to not be too powerful (it will probably have to be somewhat short range, with low bombard and low ROF). Unless 0 defense makes the transport like a worker (which cannot be killed by air units); in that case I could give the transport a defense value which would work.

------------------

All units are almost done (95%), most all resources are done (99%); so I may try to do leaderheads next.... I have been balancing the game in the meanwhile, and right now, Emporer/Monarch difficulties are good challenges... above that get difficult to extremly tough (so I think it is set up good as it is).

I won't be able to include all the unique buildings of each civ (which is 3 each) because I am getting close to the improvement limit. This also means that the Neutral civ may have to be scrapped, because it would require many more improvements as well. I sure wish the limit was not 128, but 256... and chances are that it could be changed in the .exe file (since the .exe also was changed recently to allow more than 512 cities), but I have no idea how to go about doing such a thing.

Tom

 

[nick0515]

Yah. Sounds like you'er getting kinda close to finishing. Though I guess leaderheads could take quite some time. Are you making them from scratch?

Sounds like the game is balanced about right. I usually play Monarch and I like it to be quite a challenge. I'd rather get womped 3 games out 4 than win everygame easily.

Someone with some knowhow should really try and hack the buildings limit. 128 is just rediculously low.

 

[Supa]

Are you sure the limit is not 256 ?

 

[Roland Ironfist]

If you need any images of the leaders you've chosen to use, just scribble down their names and I'll see what I can find

 

[tom2050]

Are you sure the limit is not 256 ?

Yes, you are right, it is 256... I mis-typed or something (a senior moment?) ... I am about 15+ buildings from that limit.

Someone with some knowhow should really try and hack the buildings limit. 128 is just rediculously low.

I can't remember the name of the member who cracked the city limit (his buddy from the russian CFC site I believe), perhaps we could ask him if his buddy could look into it.

If you need any images of the leaders you've chosen to use, just scribble down their names and I'll see what I can find

AvLee: Elvenking Eldrich Parson
Erathia: Nicolas Gryphonheart or Catherine Ironfist
Bracada: Gavin Magnus
Deyja: This is tricky as the country went through about five leaders in a space of a few years. Before Heroes III it's Finneas Vilmar. In H3 it's Lich King Gryphonheart. And then in MM7 it's Archibald Ironfist
Eeofol: Either Xenofex (before MM7) or Lucifer Kreegan (after).
Nighon: No specific leader. Mutare rises to power at an ambiguous point in time but she's not leading the country in Heroes 3.
Vori: King Vol
Tatalia: King Tralossk (Lizardman)
Krewlod: Duke Winston Boragus (Ogre)

You provided a great list before; for Deyja I will use Lich King Gryphonheart. Nighon Mutare, since I'm unsure who else may be better if leader is unknown. And Kreegan for Eeofol.

The more images the better! I will hunt around for some also when the time comes.

Tom

 

[Supa]

Actually, with Steph's Extended Editor, you can add more than 256 buildings but if you do, you'd have automatically some of these buildings built in every of your cities - the same ones, every time, in every city. You'd have to put some buildings without any effects (someone suggested to name them "House") at the right place in the editor.

So you can have more than 256 buildings, but it requires a few additional work hours.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298525

 

[tom2050]

Actually, with Steph's Extended Editor, you can add more than 256 buildings but if you do, you'd have automatically some of these buildings built in every of your cities - the same ones, every time, in every city. You'd have to put some buildings without any effects (someone suggested to name them "House") at the right place in the editor.

So you can have more than 256 buildings, but it requires a few additional work hours.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=298525

Thanks, that is great to know, and may solve all of those problems! The thing is, is that I don't need a tremendous amount more buildings, just a few (maybe 20 or 30 over the limit), so from what I read, there may only be a couple extra buildings that are autobuilt from the start. That is no big deal. Definitely doable. And big thanks to Steph!

----

EDIT: To fix the problem with AI building pretty much all irrigation from the start of a game (thus making the AI have a horrible time building anything due to low shield production in cities), I have moved irrigation into a tech just a bit out. Usually by 1/4th the game in or more, most civ's will know it by then, but this makes the AI competitive in early game since all it can build is mines.

This makes starting in a desert distrastrous though! (I may make Oasis' very common in desert and provide high food to compensate).

Tom

 

[nick0515]

Good to know the limit is 256, and we should find out about getting that limit cracked by the Russian guy. I'll try and find the post about city limits and see if it can be arranged/attempted.

Also good to know Stephs editor provides a work around. Though it might be simpler just to leave out the neutral Civ if that makes your building numbers fit with the 256 limit.

Why was the AI building only irrigation. I've always observed the oposite in my games. Mostly mines. Are the terrain bonuses set differently in your mod?

 

[tom2050]

Good to know the limit is 256, and we should find out about getting that limit cracked by the Russian guy. I'll try and find the post about city limits and see if it can be arranged/attempted.

Also good to know Stephs editor provides a work around. Though it might be simpler just to leave out the neutral Civ if that makes your building numbers fit with the 256 limit.

Why was the AI building only irrigation. I've always observed the oposite in my games. Mostly mines. Are the terrain bonuses set differently in your mod?

Yes, the terrain bonus' had to be changed... for the Epic game they may not need to be changed, but they must for scenarios. Each terrain type had to be made to be one of the HoMM terrain types. Therefore there is Grass, Snow, Dirt, Subterranean, Lava, etc in place of the regular terrains. In a scenario, the terrain bonus' have to be somewhat even in order to allow all civ's to be able to grow their cities.

Also, each civ ignores the terrain movement cost penalties of their own terrain, and flying units ignore it for all terrain types (except mountains). This gives flying units an added bonus, but makes it a bit more difficult for certain civ's to invade other lands because terrain will slow them down (unless it is their terrain type).

This works well enough, because it allows AI to grow aggresively, and usually AI cities are 10-12 and pretty well built up by the time they get irrigation, so then they do add irrigation but they do not overdo it (as they were if irrigation is available immediately).
----------------
I am test playing a game on Emporer, and I had to sue for peace because I was on the verge of getting absolutely crushed. It seems I may have to lower the difficulty down on each level a bit (Sid is literally impossible; 0% win chance as is now).

Tom

 

[tom2050]

I am going to have to do some adjustments, it seems that the unit limit may be getting hit on Huge Maps with max civ's around 1/3rd of the game through (8192 units I believe ). Smaller maps do not encounter this problem (that I have seen, Large maps probably do later in the game).
- Raise the time Level 1 and 2 units are autoproduced.
- The players can always build Level 1 units (and Level 2 units once that tech is discovered). As the game progresses, these units can be mass produced once your cities are large. To avoid this; higher level Unit Tech's will raise the cost of these low level units, to keep the number of units down.
- Each creature has a main stucture that autoproduces it, and an upgrade structure. A possible solution could be to combine these 2 structures together (although I don't want to do that).
- Decrease the size of the Epic maps.
- Lower the amount of free units each gov't gets / increase maintenance costs to 2 for each unit over the free amount. (Does AI disband units to keep costs down???)

------------

Here are some of the other unit conversions that may/will make it in game at this point.

Pixie (Conflux civ)


Mage (Tower civ)


Cyclops (Stronghold civ)


Stronghold Tower (Stronghold civ)


Titan (Tower civ)


Tom

 

[Virote_Considon]

Guys, I've tested this, and you can't have more than 256 improvements.

Not only do you get the extra improvements in a city when you have more than 256, but also, whenever you build an improvement in the city (any improvement, even #s 1-256), you get a further improvement in the city, from the 256+ range.

 

[nick0515]

Tom the Pixie and Mage look like really cool units. Can't wait to seem.

Also I'm pretty srue the AI disbands units. I recently saw a worker disbanded, presumably for unit support reasons.

EDIT: I've just checked and in the mod I was playing (MEM II) workers don't require support, so I have no idea why the AI disbanded the worker.

Re Virote's comment I guess axing the neutral civ will be your best option to cut buildings down.

 

[tom2050]

Guys, I've tested this, and you can't have more than 256 improvements.

Not only do you get the extra improvements in a city when you have more than 256, but also, whenever you build an improvement in the city (any improvement, even #s 1-256), you get a further improvement in the city, from the 256+ range.

I've been able to lower the number of buildings in order to fit them all in, with a few to spare. There were still several that were unused in the list, and I've made it so that you can grow your towns to any size with a single building. I've been able to add all the buildings I need and I am at 241 buildings, so I still have 15 to spare (which those will probably end up being mostly used). This means I may be able to add the Neutral Civ after all.

Thanks for the info, you saved me alot of work!

Tom the Pixie and Mage look like really cool units. Can't wait to seem.

Also I'm pretty srue the AI disbands units. I recently saw a worker disbanded, presumably for unit support reasons.

EDIT: I've just checked and in the mom I was playing (MEM II) workers don't require support, so I have no idea why the AI disbanded the worker.

Re Virote's comment I guess axing the neutral civ will be your best option to cut buildings down.

Yes that is strange that AI would disband units with no support costs first (or at all). I remembered from Rocoteh's WWII Global, that the AI would often do the same thing for Moscow's Fortress Defenses (which required no support costs). I suppose for units that require no support costs, I will make sure I take the Disband option off.

I've added all buildings in the game now for all tech's, as well as special buildings unique to each civilization. For neutral civ, I will need 3 buildings for Fort, Citadel, and Castle, and then I would have 12 left for creature structures... but I will wait until I make sure I do not need those buildings for something else before I do that.

GRAIL
-----

Grail buildings have been added also, with the closest special benefit that could be applied to them.

Should I make the Grail artifact Invisible??? By clicking on the terrain, the words Grail would still appear (once The Grail tech is discovered), but since in HoMM3 you had to dig for the Grail to find it, I suppose doing such a thing would go along with that.

Of course, if a road is on the Grail, the popup will be seen saying that the people want to build the Grail Structure (the player will be made aware of it, so it's not an annoying feature).

Also, should the grail on the Epic map be very rare (set at 5 appearance right now), or should it be somewhat more common, so all civ's can have a chance to get it. I think more common (20 appearance ratio perhaps) may be more enjoyable for players instead of never seeing it.

I am finishing the touches on each of the 3 unique civ buildings; so Alpha testing may be coming somewhat soon. There is probably much to be balanced!

DIFFICULTY
-----------

I am going to do a playtest myself, which I will post in the next few days. Difficulty levels have been balanced, so Monarch is a fair game, in the sense that the player can stay on an even level with the AI in terms of tech, and military power. Emporer level is much more difficult (the small bit of difference in terms of AI slightly faster build times makes a very large difference). Although good strategy is absolute key to making sure you stay in the game. Above that difficulty would require one to know the game very well to stay competitive.

UNITS
------

All units are done except for a few... the Ballista, Gog/Magog, and a few other graphics I need to complete. I think I have found somewhere to grab the Ballista graphic from; for Gog/Magog, I may see about the Oblivion graphic (they never replied to the several emails sent, so I may use and post unless they ask not to or to take it down).

I may start putting in work on Civilopedia, all pedia creatures are already done, but this helps alot when testing the game being able to see it right there.

Tom

 

[nick0515]

Excellent news about the buildings Tom!

Re AI disbanding, I wonder if there are some hardcoded features coming into play there. Perhaps the AI is programmed to disband certain units first. Workers perhaps are the first option regardless of support cost. And of course they do require support in the original game.

Re the grail, definitely make it invisible. Much more fun that way, though I guess the AI will know exactly where it is but humans won't.

Can't wait for the alpha test!!!