2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Patine]

No, I criticised you, because it's something you rail about to a fault. Cloud doesn't.

Doesn't she? Really?

 

[Gorbles]

I think it isn't practical to pretend that most people will be ok with any yelling/accusations/attacks of this type, just cause they are identified as the enemy. Trauma is terrible, obviously, but I am pretty sure you are aware of the fact that what matters is more how each person views their own situation. If to A what B suffered is trivial, it doesn't mean B magically gets to stop suffering. And neither does A. Hint: A and B can't both have suffered "the same", cause there is no "the same".

I don't think I said that most people will be "okay" about anything. The point is to broker understanding, because then the okay-ness can come out of that. Sometimes understanding comes out of trauma itself, which is sucky, but also a valid path to understanding things like trauma itself, triggers, mental illness and general mental health, and so on. It's not as easy as physical health (though there are plenty of ways to ignore warning signs there). It's not like tonight where I've done something to my elbow that's caused it to swell up. Something caused that. I don't know what, but I can take steps to not make it any worse. I cannot do the same for something lurking in my subconscious. It's an entirely different ball game.

I also didn't say anywhere that a trauma victim invalidates anyone elses' pain. I don't get where you got that from? That said, just because you're in pain, or suffer to whatever extent, doesn't mean you can't be empathetic. Heck, it can make you more understanding of other peoples' trauma (though this isn't a given, of course).

Oh, you misunderstand me here. There's much about human nature we can't control.

But there are things we can. This is one of them. Often you need help to get started, and sometimes you fail. But when it negatively affects how you act toward people who did not hurt you, trauma isn't an excuse not to try.

I never wrote that you have to do it alone. But in order to seek help, you first need to realize you need help and take responsibility for it.

If you are straight up saying "we can control this", then I'm not misunderstanding you and my previous post stands.

To circle back to the whole "didn't state a profession" thing, which I'm not condemning you for in the slightest (I'm a software developer!), you do not know what the people you are talking to on here are doing in their actual lives. You are judging whatever outburst you read online, that has years of context I've tried to fill you in on. You seemingly ignored all of it. You don't know what help people are or aren't getting. You don't know what they live with daily. You are trying, as far as I can tell, to argue theoreticals (such as behaviour that can be mitigated with therapy and support, arguably), but you're doing so from a tangent that emerged from talking about literal, actual, forum posters. The context isn't theoretical.

Doesn't she? Really?

Still deflecting, I see.

 

[JPetroski]

Only if you consider empathy important. You do not seem to so why fight it? The others on your side of this debate do not seem to, so again why fight it? From the "welfare queen" to lgbtq to BLM. Conservatives seem absolutely unable to put themselves in another's shoes and this seems to dictate their positions on social topics. From welfare to justice to immigration their take is "I'm not helping these people, they are not part of my group". I'm jsut calling it as I see it.

Empathy is important but it's not really what you're after. You want compliance; someone to say what you do with all that empathy is correct. If some dares defy you, you retreat to a baseless accusation that they lack a core human emotion.

I have two kids. You think my heart doesn't wrench when a school gets shot up? You think I dont draw them in a little tighter for a hug that night? You don't think I agonize for those parents for days? Cry for them? Empathize with them, just like every parent in the country does?

But no. I suppose you think I dont. I obviously must have no empathy for them because I dont agree with their conclusions about the matter, or support initiatives some of them push for.

 

[Kyriakos]

I don't think I said that most people will be "okay" about anything. The point is to broker understanding, because then the okay-ness can come out of that. Sometimes understanding comes out of trauma itself, which is sucky, but also a valid path to understanding things like trauma itself, triggers, mental illness and general mental health, and so on. It's not as easy as physical health (though there are plenty of ways to ignore warning signs there). It's not like tonight where I've done something to my elbow that's caused it to swell up. Something caused that. I don't know what, but I can take steps to not make it any worse. I cannot do the same for something lurking in my subconscious. It's an entirely different ball game.

I also didn't say anywhere that a trauma victim invalidates anyone elses' pain. I don't get where you got that from? If you're suffering from enough pain that it's causing you to not feel empathy for others, something's seriously up. Just because you're in pain, or suffer to whatever extent, doesn't mean you can't be empathetic. Heck, it can make you more understanding of other peoples' trauma (though this isn't a given, of course).

I think it is harsh of you to accuse Cloud of being in so much pain that it is impossible to feel empathy for others.
"Heck", the same if for anyone else.

On another note, I do think mods should riot-police the thread, cause it is the worst idea to be discussing posters, as has been done for pages now. I, being an angel, tried to prevent this, but TPTB prevailed.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Are you sure it’s not cause Twitter banned him?

Though I doubt he’s gonna get tossed in jail. Given George W. Bush is a free man and Nixon had Gerald Ford pardon him.

He has not been banned. His tweets have been tagged. Trump's crimes have been mostly not political: tax fraud, insurance fraud, corruption etc. Presidents cannot pardon him for state crimes. I doubt the governor of NY will pardon Trump. IIRC with Nixon, the deal was, "I'll go quietly if I get a pardon." I suspect Trump will pardon his kids from federal crimes they "might" have committed.

 

[Takhisis]

One of the nicest things is that Trump has stopped tweeting. I'm sure he is anxious. In jail he won't be able to get his hair done or wear his long red ties.

He'll wear orange and we won't know which way he's facing unless he stops to pee.

 

[Imaus]

Reconciliation, 2008+; artist unknown:

 

[Gorbles]

I think it is harsh of you to accuse Cloud of being in so much pain that it is impossible to feel empathy for others.
"Heck", the same if for anyone else.

That's not what I said in the slightest. That said, I did edit my post to clarify more what I meant because that kind of statement is easily taken out of context. It certainly wasn't applying to anybody here.

I was trying to explain to you the variance in range of trauma's interplay with being human. Obviously I need to try harder, or maybe take it to PMs.

 

[Kyriakos]

Reconciliation, 2008+, artist unknown:

What does the pink-cyan-white dress symbolize?

That's not what I said in the slightest. That said, I did edit my post to clarify more what I meant because that kind of statement is easily taken out of context. It certainly wasn't applying to anybody here.

I was trying to explain to you the variance in range of trauma's interplay with being human. Obviously I need to try harder, or maybe take it to PMs.

Seriously, Gorbles. If you aren't trying to irk me, you sure are doing a very botched job of wording your posts when you write to me

 

[Patine]

Still deflecting, I see.

Deflecting? That claim is gobsmacking. I asked a legitimate question, and you refused to answer and accuse ME of "deflecting," in hopes of hiding your hypocrisy and shameless double-standards. Well, never-mind, @Gorbles, you've revealed them anyways, and killed any higher ground of credibility to speak down to me or anyone else from ever again. You've shown your true colours, while trying to disingenuously and clumsily avoid doing so. Congratulations!

 

[Birdjaguar]

Reconciliation, 2008+, artist unknown:

For that to happen more of those on the ends need to spend time with each other and fall in love. It took time, but it worked with interracial marriages.

 

[Gorbles]

Deflecting? That claim is gobsmacking. I asked a legitimate question, and you refused to answer and accuse ME of "deflecting," in hopes of hiding your hypocrisy and shameless double-standards. Well, never-mind, @Gorbles, you've revealed them anyways, and killed any higher ground of credibility to speak down to me or anyone else from ever again. You've shown your true colours, while trying to disingenuously and clumsily avoid doing so. Congratulations!

1. You've done this hyperbolic, name-calling routine before. Once again, calling people names is okay when you do it. Nothing's changed there.
   
2. You didn't quote my full post to you, nor did you reply to it fully. Practise what you preach.
3. For the record, no, Cloud does not repeatedly talk about the infinite variance of political ideologies like you do. Ergo, it's not inconsistent when she then ascribes labels to people. You are the one that rejects most overarching, generalised labels. So I call you on them when you indulge in them yourself. Question answered, point proven.

 

[Hrothbern]

A lot of things you simply cannot explain to someone who did not experience something similar.
That does not mean that you should not try for the sake of attempting to communicate. Is a matter of respect to the relation you have. But having expectations there is not wise and also not relevant.

 

[Estebonrober]

Empathy is important but it's not really what you're after. You want compliance; someone to say what you do with all that empathy is correct. If some dares defy you, you retreat to a baseless accusation that they lack a core human emotion.

I have two kids. You think my heart doesn't wrench when a school gets shot up? You think I dont draw them in a little tighter for a hug that night? You don't think I agonize for those parents for days? Cry for them? Empathize with them, just like every parent in the country does?

But no. I suppose you think I dont. I obviously must have no empathy for them because I dont agree with their conclusions about the matter, or support initiatives some of them push for.

Yea "thoughts and prayers!" the best!

Actually making my point here, yes I think you have empathy for those kids because you can relate them to your kids. This empathy becomes more stretched as the likeness changes more and more. So yea picking gun control is a good way to demonstrate this. . . Gun control is insanely popular as a policy. It polls at around 80% nationally and even over 50% with jsut NRA members. There are lots of options we can do, but one side keeps voting for the party that squashes reform because that empathy dies in front of so many other concerns.

Also there is a significant portion of the base of the GOP at this point that is so wrapped up in conspiracy theories that they believe every mass shooting is a NSA attempt at gun control which idk even what to say about that.

 

[Takhisis]

What does the pink-cyan-white dress symbolize?

transgenderism

 

[Birdjaguar]

A lot of things you simply cannot explain to someone who did not experience something similar.
That does not mean that you should not try for the sake of attempting to communicate. Is a matter of respect to the relation you have. But having expectations there is not wise and also not relevant.

People in pain needs more hugs.

 

[Kyriakos]

Posting rules demand that I include some text with any image. This was the accompanying text for the message of friendship and it's magical healing quality. This message ends here.

 

[Gorbles]

A lot of things you simply cannot explain to someone who did not experience something similar.
That does not mean that you should not try for the sake of attempting to communicate. Is a matter of respect to the relation you have. But having expectations there is not wise and also not relevant.

Of course. But in this context, the things that cannot be explained is trauma (personal trauma, specifically. Not shared, or group trauma). And I'm here three or so pages in, having all sorts of parallel debates about why the people experiencing the trauma lash out occasionally, or have limited patience for generic, repetitive advice.

 

[Zardnaar]

Of course. But in this context, the things that cannot be explained is trauma (personal trauma, specifically. Not shared, or group trauma). And I'm here three or so pages in, having all sorts of parallel debates about why the people experiencing the trauma lash out occasionally, or have limited patience for generic, repetitive advice.

I think people have run out of patience with hyperbole and inflammatory language and the attacks.

Trump's the worst example but he's not the only one.

 

[Sarin]

IIf you are straight up saying "we can control this", then I'm not misunderstanding you and my previous post stands.

To circle back to the whole "didn't state a profession" thing, which I'm not condemning you for in the slightest (I'm a software developer!), you do not know what the people you are talking to on here are doing in their actual lives. You are judging whatever outburst you read online, that has years of context I've tried to fill you in on. You seemingly ignored all of it. You don't know what help people are or aren't getting. You don't know what they live with daily. You are trying, as far as I can tell, to argue theoreticals (such as behaviour that can be mitigated with therapy and support, arguably), but you're doing so from a tangent that emerged from talking about literal, actual, forum posters. The context isn't theoretical.

I'm not saying "we can". I'm saying "we might". I don't see directly into other people's heads.

When it's just your issue, it's your choice how to deal with it. But when it impacts other people, those who had nothing to do with what happened to you, then you owe it to them to at least try. That's the price for living in a society, to consider other people too.

And if such consideration isn't enough...to go back to my metaphor, there are experts in shoveling **** on other people around, especially on the internet. I had a distinct displeasure of meeting a few in real life. Attracting their attention by shoveling around could have very destructive result on already damaged psyche.