2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Gorbles]

Whups, same time post.

I'm not saying "we can". I'm saying "we might". I don't see directly into other people's heads.

When it's just your issue, it's your choice how to deal with it. But when it impacts other people, those who had nothing to do with what happened to you, then you owe it to them to at least try. That's the price for living in a society, to consider other people too.

And if such consideration isn't enough...to go back to my metaphor, there are experts in shoveling **** on other people around, especially on the internet. I had a distinct displeasure of meeting a few in real life. Attracting their attention by shoveling around could have very destructive result on already damaged psyche.

I don't think you're seeing the core point I'm putting across - people are undoubtably trying. I've seen trying. You're the one balancing it on a theoretical they might / might not have been trying.

And yeah, I completely agree there are such experts. Have you ever stopped to consider that their existence is exactly why Cloud, aelf and whoever don't take your self-insert into how to live their lives seriously? Once bitten, twice shy kind of thing? I don't think you're one at all, right? I'm not trying to polarise this. I just think you're way too committed to the principle of your argument to entertain the idea that the people you were originally talking to haven't heard the advice before, and indeed acted upon it.

They don't need randoms (which is what you and I are, essentially) telling them how to do it. Contextually, it isn't super constructive. From a neutral perspective, suspended by itself, sure, it's instructive advice. It can even be meant as instructive advice. But it's unnecessary because you don't actually know the people you're advising. Does that at least follow?

I think people have run out of patience with hyperbole and inflammatory language and the attacks.

Trump's the worst example but he's not the only one.

Imagine how it feels the other way then!

 

[Patine]

1. You've done this hyperbolic, name-calling routine before. Once again, calling people names is okay when you do it. Nothing's changed there.
   
2. You didn't quote my full post to you, nor did you reply to it fully. Practise what you preach.
3. For the record, no, Cloud does not repeatedly talk about the infinite variance of political ideologies like you do. Ergo, it's not inconsistent when she then ascribes labels to people. You are the one that rejects most overarching, generalised labels. So I call you on them when you indulge in them yourself. Question answered, point proven.

I don't care about the specifics this time. You've shown double-standards and inconsistent views of this sort before. Your teacherly sense of moderate reasonability does not pass the litmus past. And, since, I have never attempted to portray such an image online for a VERY long time, this can't be simply turned on me.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't care about the specifics this time. You've shown double-standards and inconsistent views of this sort before. Your teacherly sense of moderate reasonability does not pass the litmus past. And, since, I have never attempted to portray such an image online for a VERY long time, this can't be simply turned on me.

Not exactly innocent here.

I argue with Gorbles all the time and vice versa. I don't think it's personal would have kebab and beer with Gorbles and talk crap.

 

[Gorbles]

I don't care about the specifics this time. You've shown double-standards and inconsistent views of this sort before. Your teacherly sense of moderate reasonability does not pass the litmus past. And, since, I have never attempted to portray such an image online for a VERY long time, this can't be simply turned on me.

I give pretty much every post I come across the same chance I give every single other. To me, there are very few write-offs. The sheer amount of time I reply to people that I don't agree with is evidence of that.

Your hypocrisy is a challenge, but hey. I genuinely enjoy a bunch of stuff you talk about. It's just topics like this where you completely lose it, start going off at me, and then somehow get surprised when I call you on it? I don't care you don't care about specifics. If anything, that proves that "this time" you weren't even intending to be constructive. Go figure.

 

[GenMarshall]

He has not been banned. His tweets have been tagged.

Just wanted to make sure since I had my suspicions. Though I don’t use Twitter so I wouldn’t know if a persons has been banned or suspended.

Trump's crimes have been mostly not political: tax fraud, insurance fraud, corruption etc. Presidents cannot pardon him for state crimes. I doubt the governor of NY will pardon Trump. IIRC with Nixon, the deal was, "I'll go quietly if I get a pardon." I suspect Trump will pardon his kids from federal crimes they "might" have committed.

Given that Trump’s residence has been changed to Florida. It’s gonna be interesting how this would play out. Especially with interstate persecution.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Empathy is important but it's not really what you're after. You want compliance; someone to say what you do with all that empathy is correct. If some dares defy you, you retreat to a baseless accusation that they lack a core human emotion.

I have two kids. You think my heart doesn't wrench when a school gets shot up? You think I dont draw them in a little tighter for a hug that night? You don't think I agonize for those parents for days? Cry for them? Empathize with them, just like every parent in the country does?

But no. I suppose you think I dont. I obviously must have no empathy for them because I dont agree with their conclusions about the matter, or support initiatives some of them push for.

I wouldn't worry, statistics tell us that your children aren't that likely to be shot up and even if they were you could just have some more, objectively speaking

And of course you push for gun control right? That would also be the logical step.

 

[Sarin]

I don't think you're seeing the core point I'm putting across - people are undoubtably trying. I've seen trying. You're the one balancing it on a theoretical they might / might not have been trying.

And yeah, I completely agree there are such experts. Have you ever stopped to consider that their existence is exactly why Cloud, aelf and whoever don't take your self-insert into how to live their lives seriously? Once bitten, twice shy kind of thing? I don't think you're one at all, right? I'm not trying to polarise this. I just think you're way too committed to the principle of your argument to entertain the idea that the people you were originally talking to haven't heard the advice before, and indeed acted upon it.

They don't need randoms (which is what you and I are, essentially) telling them how to do it. Contextually, it isn't super constructive. From a neutral perspective, suspended by itself, sure, it's instructive advice. It can even be meant as instructive advice. But it's unnecessary because you don't actually know the people you're advising. Does that at least follow?

I'm quoting this for the third time at least:

First of all you don't know jack**** about me okay, the reason im so aggressive online is because i'm so timid in real life, i have to be to avoid any more attention than my appearance brings me. This is my main outlet, to voice my frustations about living in a country, in a state that views me at best as 2nd class citizen, as a freak to oppress and denigrate, as a curiousity to gawk at and laugh at, as the butt of a joke to every tired, old transphobic punchline.

Second of all this is you:

You are the white dude quibbling over statistics, even as minorities give you their real life, lived experiences, because it's all theoretical for you, you don't know have to wake up worrying about today being the day someone decides to harrass or assault you on the basis of characteristic you have no control over, your lack of empathy, your lack of decency, your lack of humanity shows with every comment you attempt to post about statistics and trying to delve into the maths; if you bothered to look it up, you'd find that for years minority communities have been harrassed and attacked, to the extent that some (specifically the African-American community) literally make jokes about being stopped by police for driving a decent car, to LGBTQ people having to hide their very identity in the hopes of not being attacked.

I feel bad for @Sommerswerd, he gave you his lived experiences and you just didn't give a **** about it and i could probably give you some of mine and you'd attempt to rationalize it away.

Because you Just. Don't. Care.

Do you see in this someone who's aware of the problem and tries to fix it, or someone who is using it as excuse to lash out on people?

Because I see the latter.

 

[Sarin]

I wouldn't worry, statistics tell us that your children aren't that likely to be shot up and even if they were you could just have some more, objectively speaking

And of course you push for gun control right? That would also be the logical step.

Can you get your quotes right before you start debating this way?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I'm quoting this for the third time at least:



Do you see in this someone who's aware of the problem and tries to fix it, or someone who is using it as excuse to lash out on people?

Because I see the latter.

How am I supposed to fix the problem when the problem is a societal wide mistreatment of minorities

Like what do you want me to do that doesn't put my health and personal safety at risk, because it's all well and good telling me to take action when you dont personally have to deal with the consequences of that

 

[Gorbles]

I'm quoting this for the third time at least:

Do you see in this someone who's aware of the problem and tries to fix it, or someone who is using it as excuse to lash out on people?

Because I see the latter.

Do you not see the problem? I literally gave you context. You are giving advice that has been given for years, on the assumption that Cloud (or whoever else) isn't acting on it. You have no idea. You're attempting to diagnose her based on a frustrated, angry post? This is what I meant about profession! You have no authority to make that diagnosis! You're not even considering that you might have not helped the situation yourself. You keep pushing the problem onto other people - this is a thread! We're all culpable to one degree or another.

You do not know Cloud. You do not know what problems she has, other than what she divulges, and you do not know what she does to act on any such problems. It seems to me, honestly, that you're taking the tone of the post as a way to not engage with its contents. Nobody can stop you - that's actually the inherent risk in the style of dialogue that you're trying to caution against. But when you move from that to diagnosing what Cloud is doing with her life, that's when you step off of dry land and straight into the lake. You're in unknown waters.

 

[Patine]

I give pretty much every post I come across the same chance I give every single other. To me, there are very few write-offs. The sheer amount of time I reply to people that I don't agree with is evidence of that.

Your hypocrisy is a challenge, but hey. I genuinely enjoy a bunch of stuff you talk about. It's just topics like this where you completely lose it, start going off at me, and then somehow get surprised when I call you on it? I don't care you don't care about specifics. If anything, that proves that "this time" you weren't even intending to be constructive. Go figure.

I know and fully realize that being called out on one's own hypocrisy and double-standards is a conversation challenge. I've actually dealt with it. I admit, I have been guilty of the "H-word," myself, in my 44 year lifetime of being highly opinionated and outspoken. And it's hard to swallow when pointed out. Wouldn't you say?

 

[Hrothbern]

Of course. But in this context, the things that cannot be explained is trauma (personal trauma, specifically. Not shared, or group trauma). And I'm here three or so pages in, having all sorts of parallel debates about why the people experiencing the trauma lash out occasionally, or have limited patience for generic, repetitive advice.

First of all I did read the discussion with attention and the sincere and genuine attempts, also from you, to share insights and thoughts to get the topic well discussed, to contribute, to offer help.

It would become a big post when I really would reflect on this discussion in more width and depth. That's why I made that short remark.
And I rather write fables to explain what I think
There is a quote about that advice is only effective when asked for, when the need is owned by the one asking, when the curtains and windows are opened again.
The same applies to help.
Before that moment of opening up almost anything is just another pressure from which people want to escape or want to jab away.
Go with the flow.... empty harmony... coexistence... ears.
Our forum should be a such safe place for everybody with good intentions

 

[Sarin]

How am I supposed to fix the problem when the problem is a societal wide mistreatment of minorities

That's a different problem. What I'm talking about is how you take it out on other people.

Bun on this topic, I'd say that not lashing out and alienating people who aren't causing you trouble would be a small step in the right direction.

 

[Zelig]

He has not been banned. His tweets have been tagged.

He does lose his Twitter protections in January though: https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/7/...r-public-interest-exception-ends-january-loss

 

[Hrothbern]

I think people have run out of patience with hyperbole and inflammatory language and the attacks.

That's why patience is one of the main virtues

 

[GenMarshall]

I see the tradition of dogpileing on Patine is still going on.

For that to happen more of those on the ends need to spending time with each other.

You’re better off with the ones that haven’t fallen into the Alt-right rabbit hole. They’re more easier to deradicalize and don’t require a professional.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

That's a different problem. What I'm talking about is how you take it out on other people.

Bun on this topic, I'd say that not lashing out and alienating people who aren't causing you trouble would be a small step in the right direction.

Ah tone policing then, shall I be more diplomatic and pensive when I insinuate that others lack perspective or should I just be honest and cut with the bullcrap

 

[Gorbles]

I know and fully realize that being called out on one's own hypocrisy and double-standards is a conversation challenge. I've actually dealt with it. I admit, I have been guilty of the "H-word," myself, in my 44 year lifetime of being highly opinionated and outspoken. And it's hard to swallow when pointed out. Wouldn't you say?

I'd argue you haven't dealt with it, because here you are, still being it. If you want some actual constructive conversation, maybe don't try that kind of reverse psychology. It's a bit shallow

First of all I did read the discussion with attention and the sincere and genuine attempts, also from you, to share insights and thoughts to get the topic well discussed, to contribute, to offer help.

It would become a big post when I really would reflect on this discussion in more width and depth. That's why I made that short remark.
And I rather write fables to explain what Ithink
There is a quote about that advice is only effective when asked for, when the need is owned by the one asking, when the curtains and windows are opened again.
The same applies to help.
Before that moment of opening up almost anything is just another pressure from which people want to escape or want to jab away.
Go with the flow.... empty harmony... coexistence... ears.
Our forum should be a such safe place for everybody with good intentions

I completely agree. I hope you didn't take me as being critical with your comments. If anything, it's just a challenge maintaining a lot of these dissonant tangents at the same time. Plus, I should be asleep

I see the tradition of dogpileing on Patine is still going on.

You do realise he's only talking with me, about something that he initiated with a quote (of me)? I don't think that's what a dogpile means!

 

[Hrothbern]

Plus, I should be asleep

MeToo

 

[Takhisis]

I see the tradition of dogpileing on Patine is still going on.

It's more that Patine chooses to address 20 posters in one post that's three computer screens long and then just throws a monkey wrench into the works and kidnaps the thread for a couple of pages because people haven't learned to ignore him yet.