2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Sarin]

I said you "lightly touched" on the phrase victim mentality. Which you did. I took pains to ensure I wasn't misquoting you. Similarly, I didn't say you claimed professional capacity. That was me trying to explain to you the reaction(s) you're getting, based on your providing advice. This forum alone has enough of that advice. Genuinely, it's worn thin. Repeatedly. That's not on you, that's just context.

However, you're still putting the burden on the victim to see the world differently. It doesn't work like that. Not when people don't help. You're falling into the common trap of assuming "the worst" or the "****" (guessing there) is equally-applicable in all scenarios. It isn't. Someone instigating is instigating. Someone responding to that? Maybe they don't have to. But it's not the same as purposefully instigating. It might look the same, but that's why we have forum rules for various things. Someone can cause a scene, and someone can be in that scene, but only one is (arguably) culpable.

Same goes for giving people the benefit of the doubt. That's you wanting the benefit of the doubt, which is why you need to provide something contextual. You were asked, and you took the question in bad faith. The poster in bad faith. How's that for benefit of the doubt?

If it helps, I've been where you are now. It helps to be open. You can be open without disclosing a lot about yourself. But you can't be by just asking questions and giving very generic advice . . . while refusing to actually open up to the questions asked of you.

You might want to recap where this started.

First of all you don't know jack**** about me okay, the reason im so aggressive online is because i'm so timid in real life, i have to be to avoid any more attention than my appearance brings me. This is my main outlet, to voice my frustations about living in a country, in a state that views me at best as 2nd class citizen, as a freak to oppress and denigrate, as a curiousity to gawk at and laugh at, as the butt of a joke to every tired, old transphobic punchline.

That's what this was all about. Using the trauma as excuse for being a prick. All I did was to warn her where it leads. It's a solvable problem, but first, she would have to realize that it IS a problem and that she can solve it without being a prick.

My problem was in real life, and the way I've come to realize it isn't applicable here. So I'm not offering advice what to do. Just what to realize. A food for thought about how her behavior affects other people.

 

[Estebonrober]

This is one of those regions where I found Haidt's thesis interesting. Liberals will value empathy more, but because they have a harder time actually understanding the values that the conservatives hold, a lot gets lost in the conversation. Most 'good' people value empathy, but it's the creation of mechanisms to enact that empathy that people fight over.

Honestly, this insight, plus CFC helping me figure out how fiat economics works differently from 'real goods' economics has helped a lot. We tend to see the more vocal and evil faces of our political opponents, but figuring out why two groups can agree on a problem but not agree on a solution (especially when those solutions don't benefit from compromises) goes a long way.

At some point telling people to pick themselves up by the bootstraps is jsut an utter lack of empathy. We are so far right on the Overton window on this topic that I think we are at that point. For example I am very much supportive of the "teach a man to fish" philosophy, but with the current education setup that really only works for the in groups whom happen to live in neighborhoods that have decent schools. This dystopia, boring though it is, plays itself out right through the end of life. There have been a lot of efforts trying to find middle ground on spreading around the wealth from one neighborhood to the next to improve primary and secondary schooling. It is always vociferously rejected from the right and the center. So again at what point is that jsut a lack of empathy.

This trait presents itself over and over again. I could probably write a long article about it showing at what point in each issue it jsut becomes us vs them and lack of empathy becomes the driving decision maker.

 

[Gorbles]

@Gorbles I'm surprised you didn't sternly and firmly chasten @Cloud_Strife for putting a bunch of posters into a "box," with a single statement, like she did here.

You, know, the same criticism for putting posters into generic "boxes," to attack you criticized me for last night. Where are your principals, @Gorbles?

No, I criticised you, because it's something you rail about to a fault. Cloud doesn't. I note that you stopped replying, and instead opted to wait for a moment like this where you could non-constructively try and make a deal of it? Disappointing.

 

[Estebonrober]

First of all you don't know jack**** about me okay, the reason im so aggressive online is because i'm so timid in real life, i have to be to avoid any more attention than my appearance brings me. This is my main outlet, to voice my frustations about living in a country, in a state that views me at best as 2nd class citizen, as a freak to oppress and denigrate, as a curiousity to gawk at and laugh at, as the butt of a joke to every tired, old transphobic punchline.

That's what this was all about. Using the trauma as excuse for being a prick. All I did was to warn her where it leads. It's a solvable problem, but first, she would have to realize that it IS a problem and that she can solve it without being a prick.

My problem was in real life, and the way I've come to realize it isn't applicable here. So I'm not offering advice what to do. Just what to realize. A food for thought about how her behavior affects other people.

I think you guys understand each other fine you are jsut talking past her at this point. I mean I vent here in ways I would not at work or on facebook. I'm not going to say to my co-workers that they lack empathy for any human they don't see on a regular basis. Its not helpful to move the conversation forward. Saying it here allows people to challenge my ideas and lets me work through them. Its liberating. Its good.

 

[Gorbles]

You might want to recap where this started.

My bit started here, but it all kicked off a bit earlier.

That's what this was all about. Using the trauma as excuse for being a prick. All I did was to warn her where it leads. It's a solvable problem, but first, she would have to realize that it IS a problem and that she can solve it without being a prick.

My problem was in real life, and the way I've come to realize it isn't applicable here. So I'm not offering advice what to do. Just what to realize. A food for thought about how her behavior affects other people.

You're blaming a traumatised person's attitude for how they're acting. It's an inherently self-defeating position. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say. Food for thought the other way, hopefully.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am not sure how all this drama is relevant in the 2020 US election thread, but whatever

 

[El_Machinae]

At some point telling people to pick themselves up by the bootstraps is jsut an utter lack of empathy.

Absolutely. But mischaracterizing someone's position to be that is also a lack of empathy. This isn't an easy conversation, because we tend to notice 'their' jerks and idiots more easily. When a conservative looks over, he sees people trying to hand out free stuff. And then they miss all of the discussion about how much of that 'free stuff' either creates an efficiency or isn't actually free.

There's no doubt that a lack of empathy is the problem: there have been some pretty amazing examples even this year. "Defund the police" was immediately misunderstood nearly instantly by a reasonable portion of society. Same with Black Lives Matter. Liberals definitely value empathy more than conservatives (um, when they're self-described as that), BUT also risk not understanding the values that they don't hold for themselves.

 

[Estebonrober]

I am not sure how all this drama is relevant in the 2020 US election thread, but whatever

Well I can relate anything to politics so . . . that said this particular topic is a dividing line between left and right that drives voting tendencies. So I think its relevant.

 

[Estebonrober]

Absolutely. But mischaracterizing someone's position to be that is also a lack of empathy. This isn't an easy conversation, because we tend to notice 'their' jerks and idiots more easily. When a conservative looks over, he sees people trying to hand out free stuff. And then they miss all of the discussion about how much of that 'free stuff' either creates an efficiency or isn't actually free.

There's no doubt that a lack of empathy is the problem: there have been some pretty amazing examples even this year. "Defund the police" was immediately misunderstood nearly instantly by a reasonable portion of society. Same with Black Lives Matter. Liberals definitely value empathy more than conservatives (um, when they're self-described as that), BUT also risk not understanding the values that they don't hold for themselves.

Yea I agree with that especially the farther left you drift. Conservatives value self sufficiency to extreme levels which I respect to a point. What I say in real life pretty often is that those that are self sufficient such us me and my co-workers are actually strong enough to carry those that aren't, are we are certainly strong enough to help up those who jsut been given crap to work with, but otherwise would become self sufficient pretty easily. I find this resonates better, but its one of those things, it takes time for it to change mindsets.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well I can relate anything to politics so . . . that said this particular topic is a dividing line between left and right that drives voting tendencies. So I think its relevant.

But isn't it problematic to identify specific people here as representatives of what is a hugely polarizing situation? I am sure no one wants to be seen as a label, and neither is it fair imo to (without meaning to) diminish anyone to such.

 

[El_Machinae]

Being strong enough to carry others isn't really the same wheelhouse of being independent. They're just ... different things. And if people conflate the two, it leads to a mess. IF my society can arrange to increase the delivery of healthcare, then I'll have more resources to spend helping others (whether I do so determines whether I'm a good person). A person who overly values independence wouldn't approve of that efficiency if it required some type of team effort. Now, there are times that public institutions do get in my way of helping other people, and whether someone is primed to notice that interference could probably be predictable based on their politics.

Most of society values leisure over helping people in a truly empathic way. And then there are some people who prefer giving up leisure in order to maintain liberty!

It's bonkers. People are weird, man.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Jared Kushner, Melania Trump advise Trump to accept election loss
https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/08/politics/jared-kushner-donald-trump-concession/index.html

(CNN)President Donald Trump's inner circle is beginning to split over his ongoing refusal to accept the results of the 2020 election, as Jared Kushner and first lady Melania Trump advised him to come to terms with President-elect Joe Biden's victory and his adult sons pressed him and allies to keep fighting.

Kushner, the President's son-in-law and senior adviser, has approached him to concede, two sources told CNN. The first lady, according to a separate source familiar with the conversations, has privately said the time has come for him to accept the election loss.
Meanwhile, Trump's two adult sons, Donald Jr. and Eric, have urged allies to continue pressing on and they have pushed Republicans and supporters to publicly reject the results even as CNN and other news organizations projected the race for Biden on Saturday....

 

[Takhisis]

It's the constant threat of knowing that at any time you could:

* Have your rights totally ignored
* Be physically attacked by people who take issue with your very existence
* Having entire political parties dedicated to removing and stripping your rights away, to making your life worse off and too spread vile lies about your demographic.
* Having people you don't even know come up to you and challenge your right to exist and live.
* Having the police ignore your issues at best and at worst treat you like a criminal for no other reason than than their bigotry

For some reason I highly doubt @JPetroski has had to deal with much, if any, of this.

It gets to you, it's a slow war of attrition that is constantly at the back of your mind whenever you leave the house to do everyday stuff; driving, grocery shopping etc.

**** like this causes mental health issues, it can scar someone

If I didn't know you were of a sexual minority I'd totally think you were of African and/or Native American descent and that this was about race.

What an awful world to live in.

That's still better than congratulating Trump on Wednesday with "his victory".

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/11/07/slovenia-prime-minister-trump-call-election/

They are effectively aligning with other autocrats like Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping.

 

[Sarin]

You're blaming a traumatised person's attitude for how they're acting. It's an inherently self-defeating position. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say. Food for thought the other way, hopefully.

Every adult is responsible for his or her behavior. Like I wrote, life dumps **** on everyone, and it isn't fair. If you get a bigger pile than most, dumping even more on other people won't diminish your own pile, that's not how life's **** works. Sometimes you might find people who can help you with their own shovel. Some are paid to do so. But if throw **** at them, they might start throwing it back instead. And they may have bigger shovels.

It's a ****ty metaphor, I know. But works well with the vocabulary established when I first posted here.

It's bonkers. People are weird, man.

Truest words written in this thread.

 

[GenMarshall]

At some point telling people to pick themselves up by the bootstraps is jsut an utter lack of empathy.

I haven’t heard that phrase in a long time around these parts. The last person I heard that from was from the infamous MobBoss.

 

[Gorbles]

Every adult is responsible for his or her behavior. Like I wrote, life dumps **** on everyone, and it isn't fair. If you get a bigger pile than most, dumping even more on other people won't diminish your own pile, that's not how life's **** works. Sometimes you might find people who can help you with their own shovel. Some are paid to do so. But if throw **** at them, they might start throwing it back instead. And they may have bigger shovels.

It's a ****ty metaphor, I know. But works well with the vocabulary established when I first posted here.

Yeah, I don't think you understand trauma or reactions to trauma triggers. A large part of some responses are involuntary. You seem to think that everything can be controlled, even prevented. It's a nice thought, but it isn't borne out by the facts. If that was the case, people wouldn't need therapy, for starters. Or counselling. Or addiction support groups. All of these put up with outbursts, with anger, with self-hate, with hatred of the external. You can't just rationalise that away.

It runs parallel to some of the others in this thread talking about empathy. When you're telling the traumatised that they're responsible for making others "throw it back", as you put it, you're not being empathetic. Not by anyone's standards.

 

[Kyriakos]

Yeah, I don't think you understand trauma or reactions to trauma triggers. A large part of some responses are involuntary. You seem to think that everything can be controlled, even prevented. It's a nice thought, but it isn't borne out by the facts. If that was the case, people wouldn't need therapy, for starters. Or counselling. Or addiction support groups. All of these put up with outbursts, with anger, with self-hate, with hatred of the external. You can't just rationalise that away.

I think it isn't practical to pretend that most people will be ok with any yelling/accusations/attacks of this type, just cause they are identified as the enemy. Trauma is terrible, obviously, but I am pretty sure you are aware of the fact that what matters is more how each person views their own situation. If to A what B suffered is trivial, it doesn't mean B magically gets to stop suffering. And neither does A. Hint: A and B can't both have suffered "the same", cause there is no "the same".

Years ago I saw a video of a teen who lost both legs and arms. He seemed happy in the video, cause he was moving about as a kind of animal, playing in the couch. Most people would regard his situation as horrible. I don't recall any marches for him, however. Must be cause his life is easier than x minority/whatever. Or it is not news, cause there is no group to play with more parameters - still not about actual difficulty, no?

 

[Birdjaguar]

One of the nicest things is that Trump has stopped tweeting. I'm sure he is anxious. In jail he won't be able to get his hair done or wear his long red ties.

 

[Sarin]

Yeah, I don't think you understand trauma or reactions to trauma triggers. A large part of some responses are involuntary. You seem to think that everything can be controlled, even prevented. It's a nice thought, but it isn't borne out by the facts. If that was the case, people wouldn't need therapy, for starters. Or counselling. Or addiction support groups. All of these put up with outbursts, with anger, with self-hate, with hatred of the external. You can't just rationalise that away.

Oh, you misunderstand me here. There's much about human nature we can't control.

But there are things we can. This is one of them. Often you need help to get started, and sometimes you fail. But when it negatively affects how you act toward people who did not hurt you, trauma isn't an excuse not to try.

I never wrote that you have to do it alone. But in order to seek help, you first need to realize you need help and take responsibility for it.

 

[GenMarshall]

One of the nicest things is that Trump has stopped tweeting. I'm sure he is anxious. In jail he won't be able to get his hair done or wear his long red ties.

Are you sure it’s not cause Twitter banned him?

Though I doubt he’s gonna get tossed in jail. Given George W. Bush is a free man and Nixon had Gerald Ford pardon him.