2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Joij21]

First of all, he’s not President. The quicker you realize this the less of a shock of a Trump win will be for you. We still have until December 14 when the electors cast their votes (and that’s assuming an contingent election is not triggered). And we’re not even at Inauguration Day for Pete’s sakes!. Second of all, Trump has not conceded and will not concede if he and others agree with him that there is evidence of improprierity happening in the electoral process.

Thirdly, why should 73 million Americans accept Biden to be president (assuming all the issues are ironed out, gone through the electoral college proceed, and sworn in in January 20th)? When in the past four years, Democrats and the left have been screaming that he’s an illegitimate President, wasting our time with Russiagate and an impeachment because “Orange Man Bad”. Why should Trump supporters extend the same curtesy of “this is a legitimate president” when none was shown to Trump in the past four years? At worst they will say Biden stole the elections and that his entire administration is illegitimate. At best they’d begrudgingly accept Biden as President on Inauguration Day but would consider him as a one-term lame duck president on the level of Jimmy Carter, especially if 2022 rolls around and people vote in more GOP senators and representatives.

Again, Biden is not president until he’s sworn in on January 20th. Trump will and still be your president until then (Once again, if a contingent election isint triggered that would give Trump a Win on the bases of the State’s legislatures composed of mostly Republicans).

I thought you said you were like an Italian at the end of WW2 ready to overthrow Mussolini (A.K.A. Trump)? Why are you all of a sudden rallying around him again when you were celebrating Biden's win around election day?

 

[Gori the Grey]

though you might call it something else

Judges call it a case. In addition to a claim (which you might call a theory), they want evidence that the claim is true. All of Trump's lawsuits have been rejected by judges because Trump's lawyers have come only with theories of what could conceivably be the case, rather than evidence that something is the case.

But you know that.

 

[r16]

now while the newcomers to Civfanatics might question the relevance of New Turkey experience , the echo forum ı check daily specifically mocks a researcher in my country , talking good of Atatürk and also promising to deliver good news aka the vaccine on April 23th , 2020 some anniversary of the opening of the Parliament , like the begining of the Republic and so on . Of course he has nothing to deliver these days . From this silly rambling of r16 you will of course fail to believe that Trump wants to remain the US President not just about avoiding to pay his taxes because his promise was also a vaccine like by the same April . Yeah , it is really an ugly claim , isn't it ?

 

[Gorbles]

First of all, he’s not President. The quicker you realize this the less of a shock of a Trump win will be for you. We still have until December 14 when the electors cast their votes (and that’s assuming an contingent election is not triggered). And we’re not even at Inauguration Day for Pete’s sakes!. Second of all, Trump has not conceded and will not concede if he and others agree with him that there is evidence of improprierity happening in the electoral process.

Thirdly, why should 73 million Americans accept Biden to be president (assuming all the issues are ironed out, gone through the electoral college proceed, and sworn in in January 20th)? When in the past four years, Democrats and the left have been screaming that he’s an illegitimate President, wasting our time with Russiagate and an impeachment because “Orange Man Bad”. Why should Trump supporters extend the same curtesy of “this is a legitimate president” when none was shown to Trump in the past four years? At worst they will say Biden stole the elections and that his entire administration is illegitimate. At best they’d begrudgingly accept Biden as President on Inauguration Day but would consider him as a one-term lame duck president on the level of Jimmy Carter, especially if 2022 rolls around and people vote in more GOP senators and representatives.

Again, Biden is not president until he’s sworn in on January 20th. Trump will and still be your president until then (Once again, if a contingent election isint triggered that would give Trump a Win on the bases of the State’s legislatures composed of mostly Republicans).

Small note. Cloud said "President-Elect". Not "President".

I have no idea why the rest of your post went so off of the rails. It's like I'm reading your posts from some time ago all over again.

 

[Patine]

Maybe not, but he did get more than the 1st 30 presidents added together.

And Narendi Modi got more actual votes in 2014 and 2019 in support of his mandate than ANY other previous world leader, on the globe, anywhere, at any time, has EVER gotten in world history in an actual election, when elected as PM of India - and raked in more such votes than all the eligible voters in the U.S., UK, Canada, New Zealand, and for the European Parliament combined at the same time. I think actual voting population available at respective times makes a VERY large difference there, in those kind of stats. I mean, around 15 000 people voted for Washington in 1789 and around 30 000 in 1792 - and Presidential elections were novel back then (but he was virtually unopposed, too, I guess).

 

[onejayhawk]

An acknowledgement then, that you are essentially a completely empty vessel, ready to recieve whatever garbage the right-wing feed to you

If you want to admit that you are an empty vessel who will believe anything CNN tells, go ahead. I want to see the facts before reaching a conclusion.

And your "proof"? The simplest and most likely cause of increased voter turnout in an election is voter interest in the outcome. The overall participation is certainly up. do we know where, as in which states, the majority of the increase happened? If increased participation only happened in the important swing states and only in democratic tending districts, then all you have to do is find the hacks in those states. Now if the increase in participation was spread across lots of states, your claim is much less compelling.

Rush has been a "hate the libruls" rabble rouser for three decades. This is his last hurrah. The socialist rag WSJ recently ran a story about voter machines and debunked all those notions about machine fraud. I posted it in one of these threads.

Where do you get calling it my proof? I offered no proof. I gave some very basic reasons to suspect tampering. That is a long way short of proof.

I do not disagree that Rush is a rabble rouser. He's also a very good debater who vets his facts carefully. I have not heard his whole argument, but the outline I already gave passes the sniff test. It's a massive conspiracy, covering many states, but the lawyers claim they can prove it.

Judges call it a case. In addition to a claim (which you might call a theory), they want evidence that the claim is true. All of Trump's lawsuits have been rejected by judges because Trump's lawyers have come only with theories of what could conceivably be the case, rather than evidence that something is the case.

Case is a broad term whereas theory is specific. Claim is distinct and has to do with facts. Theory connects the facts together. Joined they become an argument. An argument and a presentation is a case.

But you know that.

With qualifications, sure.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Case is a broad term whereas theory is specific. Claim is distinct and has to do with facts. Theory connects the facts together. Joined they become an argument. An argument and a presentation is a case.

Let me know when Trump has any of these things other than a (self-serving) theory. Or wait, I'll let the succession of judges continue to let me know that he does not.

It's a massive conspiracy, covering many states,

In fact, it involves no fewer than 80 million people!

 

[Samson]

And Narendi Modi got more actual votes in 2014 and 2019 in support of his mandate than ANY other previous world leader, on the globe, anywhere, at any time, has EVER gotten in world history in an actual election, when elected as PM of India - and raked in more such votes than all the eligible voters in the U.S., UK, Canada, New Zealand, and for the European Parliament combined at the same time. I think actual voting population available at respective times makes a VERY large difference there, in those kind of stats. I mean, around 15 000 people voted for Washington in 1789 and around 30 000 in 1792 - and Presidential elections were novel back then (but he was virtually unopposed, too, I guess).

The numbers I used were 43,782 for the first and 28,579 for the second. That is not the point with those elections though, HE RAN UNOPPOSED!!!! How is that not a dictatorship!!!!

Spoiler Just in case it is needed :

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: This is not the thread for Covid conspiracies. Further digressions will be punished severely.

 

[Patine]

Like how can anyone believe this nonsense from trump's team? How can you be so dense to fall for this garbage? These people are liars, grifters, shysters. Literal cartoon villains

I fear, every time a television is on around me, or I turn on the Internet, I despair we all live in a "cartoon world," nowadays, given how ludicrous and off-the-wall everything has become, and the utter idiocy people have no problem saying and doing. And, in that light, we must all fill our cartoon roles, and the great majority of us don't get to be heroes or villains, but the less flattering roles. I fear I often end up in a Brainy Smurf role with the temperament of Oscar the Grouch.

You can post whatever you want. It doesn't mean you are correct or even understand what it is saying.

Even though I fully agree with the height of dubiousness of the quote this is responding to, this dismissal is so generic and non-contextual, I'm going to put it on my clipboard and use it against posts I mind not worth my bother to fully respond to - perhaps even some of yours - and fully credit you for it. Thank-you for a new tool in this OT forum.

I’m going on record now If they try to cancel Christianity, if they try to force me to apologize or recant my Faith, I will not bend, I will not waver, I will not break. On Christ the solid Rock I stand!!!!!!!!1 And I’m proud to be an American!!

So many people do not understand the true meaning and message of Christ's Ministry and the Path to Salvation He set before his followers is, properly, a Religion of Love, Life, Peace, Forgiveness, Good Works, Charity, and an ideal Lack of Dependence on or Overwhelming Desire for Earthly Wealth. However, the seeds arose 1500 years that would grow into what is now a massive Cult of Hate, Death, War, Vindication, Industry of Evil, Cold-Heartedness, and Greed has formed, using the name, symbols, base rituals and ceremonies, and warped and distorted views on Scripture from Christianity, but is run by Wolves in Sheep's Clothing Amongst the Flock, and uses the Lord's Name in Vain constantly to justify all manners of wickedness and vileness. And this heretical and blasphemous - and yes, apostate - view of "Christianity," are what so very many think of now when they think of the religion in a proper, and it repels those who might otherwise seek the teachings of the actual, canonically-observed Ministry of Christ, but attracts, eagerly, all the most toxic and horrid people not at all interested in their own Salvation. In this way - a twisted, warped, distorted, and perverted mockery and vehicle to justify evils it's properly antithetical to, as being considered - by most self-described followers within, and most critics and decriers without, as being the proper way of observance and practice to the true path as clearly seen in the teachings of it's founder - it suffers the exact same unfortunate and tragic fate in the modern day as Islam...

 

[GenMarshall]

I guess your metamorphasis into a republican/right winger is complete.

Nice strawman . Once again, I lean center-left/moderate. But I guess anything to the right of Stalin or Mao Is a right winger according to your book. Calling me a Republican/right winger is not an argument. But of course, keep calling people names, that is really going to get me and others on your side .

Once again: Why should Trump supporters extend a polite curtesy to Biden when he wins when the Left has berated and called Trump an illegitimate president for the past four years? Or are you going to dodge the question and call people names?

Why are you all of a sudden rallying around him again when you were celebrating Biden's win around election day?

Where did I say I was rallying around Trump? Where? I have not even been on the board for months.

I’m not falling into the optimism trap that most people are in and not recognizing other possible outcomes that are likely to happen as they celebrate in the streets while stomping on Cheetos. I’m a realist and I recognize that Trump may have wild cards in his deck that he can use to pull off a win, even if the odds are small.

Small note. Cloud said "President-Elect". Not "President".

Unlike most people. I don’t see anywhere in the constitution that states big media like CNN, or AP get to call the election. Right now with the votes being recounted and Trump waging Lawfare to potentially likely staling the process to trigger a contingency election, that we’ve never seen happen in this country happened on an presidential election.

I have no idea why the rest of your post went so off of the rails. It's like I'm reading your posts from some time ago all over again.

Do I really need to explain to you the ins and outs of the electoral process? Did you also not see where I pointed out a hypocrisy coming from the left on how they kept screaming Trump is an illegitimate president since 2016, yet expect the same courtesy in respecting their presidential choice?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Even though I fully agree with the height of dubiousness of the quote this is responding to, this dismissal is so generic and non-contextual, I'm going to put it on my clipboard and use it against posts I mind not worth my bother to fully respond to - perhaps even some of yours - and fully credit you for it. Thank-you for a new tool in this OT forum.

You did get a like for this!

So many people do not understand the true meaning and message of Christ's Ministry and the Path to Salvation He set before his followers is, properly, a Religion of Love, Life, Peace, Forgiveness, Good Works, Charity, and an ideal Lack of Dependence on or Overwhelming Desire for Earthly Wealth. However, the seeds arose 1500 years that would grow into what is now a massive Cult of Hate, Death, War, Vindication, Industry of Evil, Cold-Heartedness, and Greed has formed, using the name, symbols, base rituals and ceremonies, and warped and distorted views on Scripture from Christianity, but is run by Wolves in Sheep's Clothing Amongst the Flock, and uses the Lord's Name in Vain constantly to justify all manners of wickedness and vileness. And this heretical and blasphemous - and yes, apostate - view of "Christianity," are what so very many think of now when they think of the religion in a proper, and it repels those who might otherwise seek the teachings of the actual, canonically-observed Ministry of Christ, but attracts, eagerly, all the most toxic and horrid people not at all interested in their own Salvation. In this way - a twisted, warped, distorted, and perverted mockery and vehicle to justify evils it's properly antithetical to, as being considered - by most self-described followers within, and most critics and decriers without, as being the proper way of observance and practice to the true path as clearly seen in the teachings of it's founder - it suffers the exact same unfortunate and tragic fate in the modern day as Islam...

And for this you get:

You can post whatever you want. It doesn't mean you are correct or even understand it.

To claim true knowledge of Jesus' message one can only say "I believe...."

2000 years after the fact, we have at least 100 versions of that truth all of which claim to the real truth. Likely, some are closer than others to what was delivered in Judea way back when. You seem to indicate that some event took place at about 500 AD that changed Christianity and moved it from its true core on to a new path. Interesting.

 

[Sarin]

000 years after the fact, we have at least 100 versions of that truth all of which claim to the real truth. Likely, some are closer than others to what was delivered in Judea way back when. You seem to indicate that some event took place at about 500 AD that changed Christianity and moved it from its true core on to a new path. Interesting.

Just 100? You're off by several orders of magnitude. No two ideas of god are completely identical.

I suspect that it's about Catholic church.

 

[Gorbles]

Unlike most people. I don’t see anywhere in the constitution that states big media like CNN, or AP get to call the election. Right now with the votes being recounted and Trump waging Lawfare to potentially likely staling the process to trigger a contingency election, that we’ve never seen happen in this country happened on an presidential election.

I don't see how this relates to Cloud accurately calling Biden the President-Elect. The same standard was applied to Trump, as November 9th 2016 is the popularly-agreed date that he won the election. Did this make him President on November 9th, 2016? No. The same standard here applies. So why are you going on about it?

Do I really need to explain to you the ins and outs of the electoral process? Did you also not see where I pointed out a hypocrisy coming from the left on how they kept screaming Trump is an illegitimate president since 2016, yet expect the same courtesy in respecting their presidential choice?

Which leftists called Trump an illegitimate President? It's a popular refrain amongst liberals, and has some argument going for it given the Russian involvement in the 2016 election, but this seems to be as much of a strawman as you're now accusing Cloud of constructing. What relevance does this have for Biden? You are generally of the opinion that being pointlessly combative earns no favours. You seem to dislike insults being an answer to insults (because it escalates a situation). But here you are rather insistently pointing out that because of some apparent previous behaviour, nobody should treat Biden as the President-Elect he is by winning the election that has been called in his favour in the same way previous elections have been called for years.

I don't want to go on and on about this, but your actions are . . . out of sorts, for you these days. Like I said, it's like I'm reading your posts from some time ago.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Unlike most people. I don’t see anywhere in the constitution that states big media like CNN, or AP get to call the election. Right now with the votes being recounted and Trump waging Lawfare to potentially likely staling the process to trigger a contingency election, that we’ve never seen happen in this country happened on an presidential election.


Do I really need to explain to you the ins and outs of the electoral process? Did you also not see where I pointed out a hypocrisy coming from the left on how they kept screaming Trump is an illegitimate president since 2016, yet expect the same courtesy in respecting their presidential choice?

In 2016 all the networks called the election for Trump, Hillary conceded and within 24 hours it was all over. The GSA signed off on his win and allocated money, space and contacts immediately. The upset of the democratic party was just ignored and an orderly transition was begun.

In 2020 the networks took a week to call the election because they were still counting millions of votes. Since it was called, Trump has cry-babied that he won, lost numerous court attempts, stopped governing, and the GSA has refused to acknowledge the Biden victory. Republican governors in swing states recognize Biden's win. Trump own election Czar said the election was fraud free and fair, FoxNews too. Trump's shame is that he has lost and is unwilling to accept it, so he is trying to burn down the house on his way out.

 

[Patine]

to trigger a contingency election, that we’ve never seen happen in this country happened on an presidential election.

To be pedantic, there was one in 1824, and the intercession and corrupt bargaining and wheeling-and-dealing by Roscoe Conklin avoided one in 1876. Neither of those elections helped the socio-political unity of the nation in their aftermaths, though...

 

[Ajidica]

Why are you all of a sudden rallying around him again when you were celebrating Biden's win around election day?

I presume he saw a "leftist" being mean to someone on Twitter.

 

[Patine]

I don't see how this relates to Cloud accurately calling Biden the President-Elect. The same standard was applied to Trump, as November 9th 2016 is the popularly-agreed date that he won the election. Did this make him President on November 9th, 2016? No. The same standard here applies. So why are you going on about it?


Which leftists called Trump an illegitimate President? It's a popular refrain amongst liberals, and has some argument going for it given the Russian involvement in the 2016 election, but this seems to be as much of a strawman as you're now accusing Cloud of constructing. What relevance does this have for Biden? You are generally of the opinion that being pointlessly combative earns no favours. You seem to dislike insults being an answer to insults (because it escalates a situation). But here you are rather insistently pointing out that because of some apparent previous behaviour, nobody should treat Biden as the President-Elect he is by winning the election that has been called in his favour in the same way previous elections have been called for years.

I don't want to go on and on about this, but your actions are . . . out of sorts, for you these days. Like I said, it's like I'm reading your posts from some time ago.

It drives me almost to drink that people keep using the terms, "the Left," and, "the Right," as coterminous and conflated with the Democratic Party of the United States and the Republican Party of the United States. It's a casually disingenuous (perhaps inadvertent and ill-though-out) turn of phrase that attempts to say that the WHOLE Left-wing of the political spectrum is under the bailiwick of the Democratic Party of the United States, and the WHOLE Right-wing of the political spectrum is under the bailiwick of the Republican Party of the United States, and portraying these two parties as transcendent, pan-ideological entities under which all fall under and no POSSIBLE alternative CAN exist, by intimation. It also leads to Americans declaring that EVERYONE, without exception, both Americans and non-Americans, can be declared either a member of the Democratic Party of the United States or the Republican Party of the United States, or a supporter or sympathizer, at least, for all intents and purposes, by their ideological views and stance alone, and for all baggage from one of those labels to be applied in the toxic, vicious, divisive, self-destructive, WW1-Western-Front-trenchline-style socio-political divide in the U.S. right now, by the simple uses of the terms, "the Left," and, "the Right," instead of proper party names. And, the fact that you, in the UK, and @Zardnaar in New Zealand have actually fallen into the rhetorical trap (a "crab trap," in fact) of using these ridiculous and counter-productive terms, shows that the infection has spread far and wide. But, the kicker is, the Democratic Party of the United States and the Republican Party of the United States are ONLY two of hundreds of thousands of registered and active political parties in the world today, and of several hundred such parties in the United States alone. This campaign paraphernalia from the People's Party in 1976 or 1980 that I quite like sums up my response to such attempts to label me by others on such a standard:

 

[Colonel]

Stammering around and claiming massive voter fraud when every reputable media outlet has found zero proof, when the Chief of Elections Security (one who was appointed by the current President) in clear language said this is the most secure election in history, and when every Judge who has heard a case has thrown it out. You have gone far outside the bounds of our democratic values. This continued nonsense is damaging to our democracy. The path from the destruction of our Republic to a full blown dictatorship is a short one, discarded fair election results is step one. If somehow the sitting President were to get the results thrown out by some overly zealous Republican Judge or Justices, we would no longer have our Republic. It is time to accept the results as all of his predecessors have and begin the transition of power, to fail to do this is damaging to us all, Republican, Democrat and Independent. We are a Republic, one which was fought for by generations past and who a great many as Lincoln said "gave the last full measure of devotion". This insanity must stop as every moment it continues you dishonor those fallen in defense of this great nation, you dishonor the ideals upon which this nation was founded, and you dishonor every value we as Americans hold dear.

This is not us, this is not what we aspire to be, this is not how we conduct ourselves, this is not what our forefathers had envisioned. We are better than this!

 

[BCheek]

https://mobile.twitter.com/tomselliott/status/1329538268518551553

Democrats are the biggest collection of idiots the world has ever seen. This is seriously their response to Trump? This guy? They seriously want everyone to believe this guy that can't even speak and likes to sniff children and grope women beat Trump's record-breaking amount of votes along with every other president in history?

What a joke. You'd have to be a child to believe this.