Get off my lawn

I think, normally, because you'd care if someone tried to take it from you. If you had it.

But it's a good question, without any good answer.

The only coherent position is that nobody owns the land. But this would be such a paradigm shift for the present day that consistency can go hang.
 
Have you handed over your keys to the first nations yet? No, and you shouldn't. I am basing my claim to my land in my little scenario on the law of the land as it stands now and has stood, btw, for over 200 years.

You are free not to care, that is fine with me, but i have the law on my side. Plus one badass dog that will bite the kneecaps off any non-feline trying to take it by force ( she defers to kitties ;) ).
 
I am just saying you don't have a moral claim to the land. A legal claim, sure. But that's a function of the ability to hire people with guns, not of sound moral reasoning.
 
To be honest, I don't think it is a moral OR immoral claim. It simply "is." I shell over the moolah, I receive exclusive land rights in return.

Oh, @Camikaze: I really don't know where you think I am going wrong here about property rights. I don't think I have stated anything that is in conflict with how it works here in good ol' USA, which given my OP is precisely what I should be basing it on.

@El Mac: You did, btw, make me think of this song video...


Link to video.

@Traitorfish: Hi!
 
Well, yes.

So my complaint is that the US has outlawed barbarians, and Bhsup thinks that is a good thing.
But he's missing out on the 100 gold he can collect for Barbarian leaders (in Civ II).

The post office bosses instruct the carriers to cross the lawns. It saves them time.
Your post office instructs its employees to trespass and damage homeowners' lawns? :huh:

That's not how it is here. I asked the mailman several times to stop walking across the lawn and when he mouthed off to me and refused, I reported him. After that, he used the sidewalk.

It was the same for newspaper carriers. I had a paper route for awhile, and it was drummed in that under no circumstances was I to walk on anyone's lawn. It was a reportable offense if anyone saw me do it. Since we got monthly bonuses for being report-free, I made sure to keep to the rules. And I never missed getting my monthly bonus - perfect record.

Basically ... yes ... :mischief: but we're gonna be civilized barbarians !! :D We gonna send a diplomatic mission into Mr. Bshup's lawn territory. I just hope He's not from Texas cos he could shoot us :O
Make sure to send an advance diplomatic document of a cute cat with the words, "We extends teh floofy paw of friendship." It's a custom over at I Can Has Cheezburger? when making friendly overtures toward someone with whom you want to be friends. :D
 
A right to roam? Like, anywhere one wants? How ineffably stupid. I'm so happy to be safe from the roam-culture in other countries.

I think I've posted the Wiki link before as well but for those unfamiliar with concept. At least for Norway, Sweden & Finland it seems fairly accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

Do they actually own the property right up to the water's edge? In California, for example, it is my understanding that private property cannot extend to the beach. Here in Missouri, the State owns rivers. You can buy property on each side, but you cannot buy the river nor prevent people from using it. You can, however, keep them from pulling ashore and camping on your property.

That happens when one lacks freedom & liberties. Lakes, rivers, islands, sea coasts - all good to buy & own here.

How does it impact tort liability? Children trespassing on your property in the US is absolutely a menace under the interpretations of attractive nuisance. You're liable for every idiotic thing they decide to do, sometimes even if they scale fences and walk right past "NO TRESPASSING, DANGER BEWARE" signs. It's worse with open farmland. Unless you're super rich in court.

In no way most of the times. The land owner isn't responsible of stupidities others may do on his land or accidents they may have. Swimming in someone else's pool without permission is surely trespassing here as well - no need for any signs to point it out.


Right to roam is great. Well implemented it greatly increases people freedoms while only giving the landowner negligible drawbacks.

This.

From personal pov as a keen hiker I've enjoyed the right quite a bit over years but drawbacks so far are non-existent given that there's only small slice of forest which is used by people walking by.

A side note regarding the mailmen etc. The positioning of mailboxes makes it pointless to walk over anyones's lawn to cut the delivery time. Apart from flats the mailboxes should be reachable by a car so there's no need for the delivery (wo)man to get off from a road and/or parking lot.
 
The kind of people who go hiking in the hills are typically nothing like the kind of people who go around vandalizing other people's property. Very far from it, imo.
 
I don't know how it works in the United States, but in a lot of Scotland you can only get to the wild land by passing through private property. That's the thing about Highland geography, all the people are along the bottom of the glen, and all the wild land is behind that, so if you want to get to the one you have to pass through the other. Abolishing the right to roam would in practice cut the wild land off from public access, which is hardly worth preserving the entirely symbolic dignity of the property owner.
 
Oh, @Camikaze: I really don't know where you think I am going wrong here about property rights. I don't think I have stated anything that is in conflict with how it works here in good ol' USA, which given my OP is precisely what I should be basing it on.

The 'why do you hate property rights' question is, I think, valid enough for two reasons. Firstly and most obviously, as far as I understand it, the right to roam is generally a property right. So you're suggesting that a property right should be abolished. Secondly, the suggestion that it tears at the very fabric of private ownership, and your more general attitude towards the right, suggests a disdain for the underpinnings of land title.

To elaborate, I'd add that your quite flippant attitude towards the legal basis of your title to your land also seems to demonstrate a disdain for property rights themselves, in favour of 'might is right', which is quite a different type of claim, and indicates that you'd be fine with someone forcefully dispossessing you of your property. If you're truly concerned with the fabric of private property, you really need to think much harder about the legal basis of your own ownership.

Now, I can't speak directly to American property law, but the histories of Australia and America holds some striking similarities that would seem quite relevant. Before Australia was colonised, all land was held on native title by the indigenous population. The colonisation, by imposing the Crown's sovereignty on the Australian continent, granted the Crown radical title over the land. This means that, although none of the native title was automatically extinguished, the Crown gained the right to extinguish it, and deal with it as it saw fit. It did as such, and granted various parcels of land to individuals, who thereby had beneficial title to it. Crucially, this beneficial title was entirely reliant on the radical title of the Crown; the radical title was the legal basis for taking land that had previously been held by native title. Over time, more and more parcels of land were handed out, and eventually Australia federated and the Constitution noted that the Crown would have to provide compensation when acquiring land (or 'resuming' land; it's called 'resuming' because they're resuming their initial ownership). Nowadays, some areas of native title have not yet been extinguished, and most of Australia is held on a basis other than native title. The house in which I live, for instance, is beneficially owned by my parents, which is only possible thanks to the radical title of the Crown and its prerogative to grant the beneficial ownership of the land to the predecessors to the current title, in preference to the pre-existing native title. If it emerged that the Crown never exercised its radical title in relation to the land on which I live (which would be quite impossible, but hypothetically speaking), then the native title would not have been extinguished, and the indigenous holders of that title would be the rightful 'owners' of the land. I believe property operates similarly in the US, and is related to the concept of eminent domain.

The point being, the basis of land ownership is a government grant and continuing government radical title (or whatever the similar concept is called in the US). At this point, if you were tempted to break out Locke's labour theory of property, I'd point you to the fact that the Crown could only have obtained absolute beneficial title to land which was terra nullius. And it wasn't. There was no vacant land on which a natural property right could have developed.

Of course, the fact that the basis of land ownership is a government grant and continuing government radical title, doesn't mean the government can do whatever they want with the property to which you hold beneficial ownership. It just means that the 'fabric of private property' at which you think the right to roam would be tearing, is a fabric knitted by government. Now, it would be bizarre to suggest that although ownership is by virtue of government, they couldn't have placed conditions on the original grant for the good of the public. If you were to suggest that the right to roam were incompatible with private property, I'd have to assume that this is because you don't believe that private property ownership is by virtue of government. This would amount to an attack on the underlying basis of your property ownership. If you are taking this position, you are saying that property rights are simply a matter of 'might being right', and that there's no real legal basis for your title. Accordingly, you'd be stating that your title to your land is little more than your ability to forcibly exclude others.

Of course, the right to roam operates in property systems older than the US or Australia, but the same principle generally applies; the right to roam is a condition of the government's grant of particular land (even if that condition is implemented via a different mechanism). It isn't an imposition on private rights, because those private rights were only granted on condition that there be a right of access for the public. In this sense, it's little more than a contractual issue. And I'm sure you believe in the sanctity of contracts.
 
I don't know how it works in the United States, but in a lot of Scotland you can only get to the wild land by passing through private property. That's the thing about Highland geography, all the people are along the bottom of the glen, and all the wild land is behind that, so if you want to get to the one you have to pass through the other. Abolishing the right to roam would in practice cut the wild land off from public access, which is hardly worth preserving the entirely symbolic dignity of the property owner.

We use easements for that. And the government will generally carve out a sensible and relatively fair easement to make all privately and publicly owned lands accessible from the road system/rest of the country. For example, if my Dad sold you 10 acres in the middle of his field he would be obliged to provide an easement across the rest of his land so you could access it. If he flat out refused, a) it's unlikely the sale would go through anyhow, but b) an easement by prescription could be forced. You'd wind up with probably the shortest reasonable path over his ground to get to yours, you couldn't wander all over the rest of his ground thinking, "boy that's purty." Granted, people with snowmobiles and dirtbikes are not influenced much either way by being decent people or what's allowed, and they'll tear up your soil and get themselves hurt jumping ditches alongside your fields anyways. But they're pretty small fry. We actually had to ask somebody whose lawn butted up against a fence row to remove a flower garden they had planted in our tilled ground. Since, ya know, we weren't using that space for anything.
 
The kind of people who go hiking in the hills are typically nothing like the kind of people who go around vandalizing other people's property. Very far from it, imo.

This is easy to agree with based on countless trips in Norway, Sweden & Finland. I've also spent few nights off beaten tracks in Germany, Switzerland & Austria and the only trouble I've come across was once in Switzerland when we were awoken by a herd of very curious cows; no harm done to either party though.
People trespassing for the purpose of doing harm probably won't care about roaming rights one way or the other.

This was true when we lived on an acreage and were on a rural route. The mailman had a motor route and our mailbox was by the main road. But your method doesn't work in the city, where the mailbox is attached either to the house beside the front door, or to the front porch. You can't drive across the lawn or sidewalk to get to those mailboxes.

Mind you, unless we get rid of the current federal government and the current CEO of Canada Post, door-to-door mail delivery in Canada will be eliminated. :mad:

Skipping the door attached mailboxes happened here ~20 years ago. Some mildly heated conversations back then but it died out very soon though we're not famous for getting very emotional in our protests. People in townhouses etc having to walk few meters to the parking lot where all the mailboxes now are isn't after all that big of a deal for the majority.
The reasons for the change were obviously the general costs and probably like in Canada it was sort of ok in the summer but on winter time unplowed pathways were more than a slight inconvenience.
 
Although I aver from giving it too much legal protection, the establishment and defense of one's own turf is as intractable a human instinct as any. I'm solidly behind the notion that a man's home is his castle, though.

If the rich want to monopolize beaches, they should fight for their turf the way territorial protection has happened since time immemorial: peeing on things and trying to attack anyone who trespasses.
 
My wife gets annoyed with me when I mark our lawn.
 
The 'why do you hate property rights' question is, I think, valid enough for two reasons. Firstly and most obviously, as far as I understand it, the right to roam is generally a property right. So you're suggesting that a property right should be abolished. Secondly, the suggestion that it tears at the very fabric of private ownership, and your more general attitude towards the right, suggests a disdain for the underpinnings of land title.

To elaborate, I'd add that your quite flippant attitude towards the legal basis of your title to your land also seems to demonstrate a disdain for property rights themselves, in favour of 'might is right', which is quite a different type of claim, and indicates that you'd be fine with someone forcefully dispossessing you of your property. If you're truly concerned with the fabric of private property, you really need to think much harder about the legal basis of your own ownership.

Now, I can't speak directly to American property law, but the histories of Australia and America holds some striking similarities that would seem quite relevant. Before Australia was colonised, all land was held on native title by the indigenous population. The colonisation, by imposing the Crown's sovereignty on the Australian continent, granted the Crown radical title over the land. This means that, although none of the native title was automatically extinguished, the Crown gained the right to extinguish it, and deal with it as it saw fit. It did as such, and granted various parcels of land to individuals, who thereby had beneficial title to it. Crucially, this beneficial title was entirely reliant on the radical title of the Crown; the radical title was the legal basis for taking land that had previously been held by native title. Over time, more and more parcels of land were handed out, and eventually Australia federated and the Constitution noted that the Crown would have to provide compensation when acquiring land (or 'resuming' land; it's called 'resuming' because they're resuming their initial ownership). Nowadays, some areas of native title have not yet been extinguished, and most of Australia is held on a basis other than native title. The house in which I live, for instance, is beneficially owned by my parents, which is only possible thanks to the radical title of the Crown and its prerogative to grant the beneficial ownership of the land to the predecessors to the current title, in preference to the pre-existing native title. If it emerged that the Crown never exercised its radical title in relation to the land on which I live (which would be quite impossible, but hypothetically speaking), then the native title would not have been extinguished, and the indigenous holders of that title would be the rightful 'owners' of the land. I believe property operates similarly in the US, and is related to the concept of eminent domain.

The point being, the basis of land ownership is a government grant and continuing government radical title (or whatever the similar concept is called in the US). At this point, if you were tempted to break out Locke's labour theory of property, I'd point you to the fact that the Crown could only have obtained absolute beneficial title to land which was terra nullius. And it wasn't. There was no vacant land on which a natural property right could have developed.

Of course, the fact that the basis of land ownership is a government grant and continuing government radical title, doesn't mean the government can do whatever they want with the property to which you hold beneficial ownership. It just means that the 'fabric of private property' at which you think the right to roam would be tearing, is a fabric knitted by government. Now, it would be bizarre to suggest that although ownership is by virtue of government, they couldn't have placed conditions on the original grant for the good of the public. If you were to suggest that the right to roam were incompatible with private property, I'd have to assume that this is because you don't believe that private property ownership is by virtue of government. This would amount to an attack on the underlying basis of your property ownership. If you are taking this position, you are saying that property rights are simply a matter of 'might being right', and that there's no real legal basis for your title. Accordingly, you'd be stating that your title to your land is little more than your ability to forcibly exclude others.

Of course, the right to roam operates in property systems older than the US or Australia, but the same principle generally applies; the right to roam is a condition of the government's grant of particular land (even if that condition is implemented via a different mechanism). It isn't an imposition on private rights, because those private rights were only granted on condition that there be a right of access for the public. In this sense, it's little more than a contractual issue. And I'm sure you believe in the sanctity of contracts.

In America, land ownership evolved in a much different way. The Crown sold charters to private companies to do as they wanted with their land. The Crown did not have much of a say until it seized those charters from the Connors and turned the colonies into Crown property. To further complicate matters, many tenants in colonial America were squatters, meaning they had no legal right to the land, yet because there weren't enough actual property owners to work all of that land, they were allowed to claim it.

There was no the tenants were given land from the Crown in exchange for obeying certain conditions- they were given land as long as they could come to America on their own pocket and claim it.
 
I've thought of a way round this. The Postal Company could send you a letter the moment there's a letter for you to collect from the central collection point.

(Hell, no! That won't work!)
 
If the rich want to monopolize beaches, they should fight for their turf the way territorial protection has happened since time immemorial: peeing on things and trying to attack anyone who trespasses.

Humans evolved beyond peeing on things ages ago. Since then we have squirted ink onto paper instead and told ourselves how civilized we are.
 
Speak for yourself. I, and many of my friends, still pee on things.

It is actually a good way to keep foxes away from the chicken coop (I have heard. I haven't conducted any double blind experiments myself to determine whether this is in fact true or not). They smell the urine of another large male animal and steer away.
 
Speak for yourself. I, and many of my friends, still pee on things.

It is actually a good way to keep foxes away from the chicken coop (I have heard. I haven't conducted any double blind experiments myself to determine whether this is in fact true or not). They smell the urine of another large male animal and steer away.

I pee on the living room rug so my dogs don't.
 
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