2020 US Election (Part 3)

[Angst]

Trump asked Ukraine to help investigate involvement in the 2016 election and their cozy relationship with the Democrats

Damn that is some grade A salty spin

 

[Verbose]

Senate Democrats threatened Ukraine to help investigate Trump first and Trump gets the benefit of the doubt because there is no doubt the Bidens sullied themselves

This is where reality in the US directly parts ways with reality outside the US. Not that the US knows or cares clearly. It does however place the US in orbit relative the rest of the world.

 

[mitsho]

Gaslight
Obstruct
Project <---- we are here now

Oh Look actual voter fraud.

Is that actually voter fraud though? If the 2'000 Dollars really came from Mr. Rodriguez himself, it's just clever manipulation of simple-minded humans. It's a sign that the voting process wasn't as easy as it should have been. However you can't eliminate road bumps such as these totally, but maybe the election commission can learn something for the next time to make voting better next time. (I know that in the US, some election commissions want to make it harder instead, but that's not the problem of a candidate who is allowed to run even though he has the same last name as someone else...)

Well lets see:

1) They
2) They
3) They
4) They
5) They
6) They
7) They
8) They
9) They
10) They

And they did it all while looking down their noses from the moral high ground

So a long list of accusations that couldn't break through in the court of public opinion and that didn't convince the electorate who by how many millions now went for the other guy? You can't repeat the old hits ad nauseam, they've been looked at and discredited. Come back when you have something new and tangible.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54982360

Oh wow, how many days has Trump left to wreck havoc? It's just so petty and useless and clearly only in his own interest. He's for sure by now not acting in the interest of the US like he swore to at his inauguration.

 

[Patine]

Is that actually voter fraud though? If the 2'000 Dollars really came from Mr. Rodriguez himself, it's just clever manipulation of simple-minded humans. It's a sign that the voting process wasn't as easy as it should have been. However you can't eliminate road bumps such as these totally, but maybe the election commission can learn something for the next time to make voting better next time. (I know that in the US, some election commissions want to make it harder instead, but that's not the problem of a candidate who is allowed to run even though he has the same last name as someone else...)



So a long list of accusations that couldn't break through in the court of public opinion and that didn't convince the electorate who by how many millions now went for the other guy? You can't repeat the old hits ad nauseam, they've been looked at and discredited. Come back when you have something new and tangible.



Oh wow, how many days has Trump left to wreck havoc? It's just so petty and useless and clearly only in his own interest. He's for sure by now not acting in the interest of the US like he swore to at his inauguration.

As I keep saying, that no one wants to even acknowledge the existence of as a fact, the institutional suppression of Third Party and Independent candidates and all electoral representation of ideologies outside the narrowing bailiwicks of the Duopoly Parties' platforms by BOTH major parties, is a very a problem, as a very real form of electoral fraud, malfeasance, and suppression.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54982360

Headline might as well have read: Trump fires anyone who contradicted him.

I do like this part though:

President Trump said he "terminated" Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (Cisa) chief Chris Krebs for his "highly inaccurate" remarks on vote integrity.

Meanwhile, the American people "terminated" President Trump despite his "highly inaccurate" remarks on vote integrity.

 

[Gorbles]

As I keep saying, that no one wants to even acknowledge the existence of as a fact, the institutional suppression of Third Party and Independent candidates and all electoral representation of ideologies outside the narrowing bailiwicks of the Duopoly Parties' platforms by BOTH major parties, is a very a problem, as a very real form of electoral fraud, malfeasance, and suppression.

Lots of people recognise the duopoly. You're repeating yourself on a false equivalence.

 

[Patine]

Lots of people recognise the duopoly. You're repeating yourself on a false equivalence.

Are you saying it DOESN'T count as electoral suppression and anti-democratic (as in a democratic system of free-and-fair, contested elections of the will of the people and political pluralism, not the Democratic Party of the United States), and that it's perfectly acceptable and goodly, as long as it's not Republicans hampering people from voting for the Democratic Party, exclusively? How is the equivalence "false," exactly?

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Are you saying it DOESN'T count as electoral suppression and anti-democratic (as in a democratic system of free-and-fair, contested elections of the will of the people and political pluralism, not the Democratic Party of the United States), and that it's perfectly acceptable and goodly, as long as it's not Republicans hampering people from voting for the Democratic Party, exclusively? How is the equivalence "false," exactly?

I feel a lot of it is down to coverage. The news media is not as much fraudulent as it is lazy and geared towards sensationalism. The Dems vs Reps angle is an obvious and well trodden path for generating "stories". Third or fourth parties aren't as juicy to report on. And this leads to the public not paying attention to those parties. Which again leads to news organizations not covering these parties, since that's not what the consumer wants.

Best thing that could happen (but won't) is if dem & rep parties split into a moderate and a more extreme wing. It won't happen of course because it weakens the party's ability to win elections. Lets say for fibs and giggles that Trump in the next 4 years creates his own brand of a right wing party. That will be a sure fire way for Democrats to win the election. The only way such a construct would work if both parties decide to go that route at the same time.

And that of course will never happen.

 

[Gorbles]

Are you saying it DOESN'T count as electoral suppression and anti-democratic (as in a democratic system of free-and-fair, contested elections of the will of the people and political pluralism, not the Democratic Party of the United States), and that it's perfectly acceptable and goodly, as long as it's not Republicans hampering people from voting for the Democratic Party, exclusively? How is the equivalence "false," exactly?

I didn't say anything about electoral suppression. The false equivalence is insisting nobody wants to acknowledge something people have repeatedly acknowledged.

 

[Patine]

I didn't say anything about electoral suppression. The false equivalence is insisting nobody wants to acknowledge something people have repeatedly acknowledged.

You were clear as mud on that in the first post, but fine...

 

[FriendlyFire]

Is that actually voter fraud though? If the 2'000 Dollars really came from Mr. Rodriguez himself, it's just clever manipulation of simple-minded humans. It's a sign that the voting process wasn't as easy as it should have been. However you can't eliminate road bumps such as these totally, but maybe the election commission can learn something for the next time to make voting better next time. (I know that in the US, some election commissions want to make it harder instead, but that's not the problem of a candidate who is allowed to run even though he has the same last name as someone else...)

You probably want to read the entire article rather then just the excerts which I have included
But its is a crime to lie on your voter registration form, and disclourse statement.
It pretty dirty underhanded way of to tilt the election.

When a television reporter recently tracked Alex Rodriguez down, he pretended to be someone else.

The contested address and missing bank account on Alex Rodriguez’s financial disclosures are red flags for Planas, who questions the source of the candidate’s money.
The state attorney’s office may take interest in Rodriguez’s voter registration form, the latest filled out in Miami-Dade County on June 9, in which he listed an address on the 7700 block of Southwest 156th Street in Palmetto Bay. The couple that lives at the house now told WPLG-10’s Glenna Milberg that Rodriguez hadn’t lived there in five years.

Lying on the voter registration form is what led to the downfall of former state Rep. Daisy Baez, who falsely swore she lived at an address during a 2016 campaign. In 2017, she resigned from office and pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor perjury charge brought by the Miami-Dade State Attorney’s Office.

both only reporting $2,000 loans to themselves, and using the money to pay for the $1,187.88 filing fee required of no-party candidates for state Senate.

Both Rodriguez and Alfonso were registered Republicans when they voted in the 2018 midterm elections. Both qualified for the 2020 election the same day, with checks hand-delivered in Tallahassee and time-stamped within minutes of one another.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article247238749.html

 

[mitsho]

You probably want to read the entire article rather then just the excerts which I have included.

You are right, I should have. Sorry. I'm glad I quoted it though as it deserves another post on this page of the thread. It's just so not surprising what kind of people do stuff like this.

 

[onejayhawk]

What's 'suspicious'? How many would it take to be 'suspicious'? Trump just wants to find a few so he can throw out tens of thousands of them. I know someone who voted for president and nothing else. It's not surprising really. There are lots of people who don't normally vote, but did vote this year. They voted because they wanted Trump gone. Trump was the only reason they voted. They didn't care to vote for the other races, whether it was being uninformed of the differences between the candidates of those lesser contests, or just not caring, they just wanted the Supreme Idiot gone.

There are ranges that occur naturally. When something is outside the range, then you check more closely. Undercount is particularly important because fake ballots tend to be done this way. Future President Lyndon Johnson was elected to the Senate using a bag of fake ballots. This was one of those cases where it was suspected but not proven until much later, in this case after his death.

More troublesome is the turnout. Since computer tallying is involved, the possibility of fabricating millions of votes in multiple states is legitimate. It has only been two weeks and things are in the investigation stage, at least publicly.

And don't forget the institutional suppression of Third Party and Independent candidates and all electoral representation of ideologies outside the narrowing bailiwicks of the Duopoly Parties' platforms by BOTH major parties - something that, though I've brought it up quite a few times, no one even wants to acknowledge the existence of as a problem, as a very real form of electoral fraud, malfeasance, and suppression.

That's not the parties. That's the unintended effect of the winner takes all nature of the election.

The Ukraine issue is viewed as Trump trying to initiate an investigation into a corrupt Obama administration ("Biden used taxpayer dollars to attack someone investigating Hunter"). It's not seen as Trump using American taxdollars in order to either initiate a foreign investigation into an American citizen OR as an effort to provide clickbait with which to sully Biden. Trump, of course, gets the benefit of the doubt here. He'd already uncovered Obama corruption on his own dime with huge success. He's not the type to use clickbait lies to attack an opponent.

Sort of, kind of. That's the perception, largely because Biden is on video bragging about it. the reality is that it is related to the FISA investigation, shich is ongoing now.

Damn that is some grade A salty spin

It's the unspun dope, but who's checking.

J

 

[Angst]

There are ranges that occur naturally. When something is outside the range, then you check more closely. Undercount is particularly important because fake ballots tend to be done this way. Future President Lyndon Johnson was elected to the Senate using a bag of fake ballots. This was one of those cases where it was suspected but not proven until much later, in this case after his death.

More troublesome is the turnout. Since computer tallying is involved, the possibility of fabricating millions of votes in multiple states is legitimate. It has only been two weeks and things are in the investigation stage, at least publicly.

Don't worry fam, I got your back. This is the biggest affront of fraud towards the American people since the Hindenburg. We're gonna get those behind it some day!

 

[onejayhawk]

Don't worry fam, I got your back. This is the biggest affront of fraud towards the American people since the Hindenburg. We're gonna get those behind it some day!

That is salty spin. Well done.

 

[Angst]

That is salty spin. Well done.

I'm not sure what you're on about. The Hindenburg was an incredible statistical anomaly, so there was definitely someone behind it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I am, in general, not a fan of the WSJ editorial pages. Their politics are not to my liking. But this one from today caught my eye.

Rage Against the Voting Machine

President Trump has so far been unwilling to concede to Joe Biden, and his latest argument is that the voting machines must have been rigged. Where’s the evidence? Strong claims need strong proof, not rumors and innuendo on Twitter.

Chatter is swirling around Dominion Voting, a company that supplies equipment in some 28 states. What seems to have launched this theory was an early misreport of results in Antrim County, Mich. In 2016 Mr. Trump won 62% of its 13,600 ballots, so eyebrows rose this year when the initial tallies showed Mr. Biden up by 3,000.

In reality, Mr. Trump had won 61% of Antrim County. The unofficial reporting was wrong, but the underlying votes were counted correctly. As officials later explained: In October the county had to tweak the ballot information for two local races. Tabulating machines in the affected areas were updated, but others weren’t. On Election Day the differing data didn’t line up right after being merged. But the printouts from the tabulators showed accurate totals.

In any case, the Michigan Secretary of State’s office said the error “would have been identified during the county canvass,” when Democrats and Republicans “review the printed totals tape from each tabulator.” Antrim County Clerk Sheryl Guy told the Associated Press: “There was no malice, no fraud here, just human error.” She’s a Republican.

A different problem hit Gwinnett County, Ga. Officials had trouble with a Dominion module for adjudicating absentee ballots, for example, if the voter put a check mark in the circle instead of filling it in. Some adjudicated ballots, the county said, “were displayed as in progress but would not move over to be accepted.” The county ended up re-adjudicating some votes until Nov. 5. Sounds like the usual boring IT snafu.

Other pundits mash together all sorts of stuff. A couple of counties in Georgia had trouble with electronic poll books, but that would affect

wait times at precincts, not final vote totals. There’s footage from a House hearing a few years ago, at which Princeton Computer Science Professor Andrew Appel said that voting machines could theoretically be hacked. Where’s the proof they actually were in 2020? “Vulnerabilities,” Mr. Appel wrote in a blog post Friday, “are not the same as rigged elections, especially when we have paper ballots in almost all the states.”

Mr. Trump was even further astray last week in a tweet. “REPORT: DOMINION DELETED 2.7 MILLION TRUMP VOTES NATIONWIDE. DATA ANALYSIS FINDS 221,000 PENNSYLVANIA VOTES SWITCHED FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP TO BIDEN. 941,000 TRUMP VOTES DELETED.” Dominion says it’s “impossible” that its machines deleted nearly a million Trump votes in Pennsylvania, where it serves only 14 counties. With turnout at 76%, it adds, those counties registered 1.3 million votes. Others have tried to draw lines between Dominion and prominent Democrats. In the category of no good deed goes unpunished, the company in 2014 agreed to donate voting machines to “emerging and post-conflict democracies” via a Clinton Foundation initiative. This shows exactly nothing about Dominion’s current operations. The company says it has no ownership relationships “with any member of the Pelosi family, the Feinstein family, or the Clinton Global Initiative.”

Another rumor is that Dominion has deep ties with Smartmatic, which has supplied voting systems to Venezuela, where the ruling regime manipulates elections. Both companies deny this. Smartmatic says it “has never provided Dominion Voting Systems with any software, hardware or other technology.” Dominion says they “do not collaborate in anyway and have no affiliate relationships or financial ties.” In 2009, Dominion adds, Smartmatic “licensed Dominion machines for use in the Philippines,” but the contract “ended in a lawsuit.”

Trump blames the result on Dominion’s systems. Where’s the evidence?

No voting system is foolproof, and hiccups are inevitable in a country with roughly 3,000 counties. The distributed nature of American elections is a strength on this point, since voting is handled by innumerable local officials instead of a few central authorities. Texas has declined to certify Dominion systems for its elections. The examiners objected to everything from the “tedious” and “unintuitive” setup, to a crash they witnessed in an adjudication module, to an indicator light that hackers could hypothetically remove to get at a USB port.

But so far there’s no good evidence of voting problems that would come close to Mr. Biden’s lead of 73,000 votes in Pennsylvania or 145,000 in Michigan. In Georgia, the Republican Secretary of State last week ordered a hand recount of all five million ballots. The effort turned up 2,600 missing votes that Floyd County forgot to upload. Adding them would cut Mr. Biden’s lead to slightly north of 13,000. But the error isn’t Dominion’s fault, and it better hope no glitches are revealed, given its 10-year contract with the state for $107 million.

If Georgia’s recount doesn’t find big irregularities, then these claims should be put to rest. In the George W. Bush years, the conspiratorial left focused on Diebold, a maker of electronic voting machines. It would be a mistake for anyone on the right to go down a similar dead end, especially if Georgia’s paper ballots give the same result as the computers.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'm not sure what you're on about. The Hindenburg was an incredible statistical anomaly, so there was definitely someone behind it.

Most likely it was Obama.

 

[Angst]

Most likely it was Obama.

I think you're on to something. Maybe not Obama, but he's Kenyan, isn't he, so his ancestors probably had a gripe towards all of Europe. They may have orchestrated this before sending him to America in a pod.

 

[onejayhawk]

I'm not sure what you're on about. The Hindenburg was an incredible statistical anomaly, so there was definitely someone behind it.

What are you talking about? The Hindenburg was not only predictable, it was predicted. Only the location was uncertain.

A turnout increase six times the maximum expected, that's an anomaly.

J