Plan for Mosque III...

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Am I the only one who finds this whole arguement too entangled in partisian politics...

Now, I believe their are people with legimate concerns that perhaps now may not be the best time, it is still a sensitive issue.

I also believe others believe that they have every right to build the mosque.

However the arguement is not made on these issue rly; instead the words muslim, terror, right, left and so forth are thrown in and make the entire issue lose any meaning.

Meanwhile those who have legimate concerns are unable to really talk it out or compromise; it has been turned into a radical debate of "I'm right, screw off!" and there is no real dialogue.

I'm not applying this to the forum alone but to the whole issue... am I alone in believing this is the case? :(
 
My objection is to building a mosque near ground zero. I dont know how much clearer I can be on that. Muslims, like everyone else, have the freedom of relgion to pray wherever they want. That doesnt mean the current building is a mosque.
Why is the current building not a mosque? Muslims regularly go to the building for the purposes of practicing their faith, and praying to Allah. Sure, there are other things going on in the building, but there will be other things going on in the new Cordoba House building that will replace this one, too. What's the difference here?

What if they officially started calling the existing building in which they practiced their faith 2 blocks from Ground Zero "a Mosque" - would you be against that?
 
300 Muslims who worked at the WTC (note, they are not terrorists) died in that attack. But sure, let's take away from the rights of their friends and family who probably live and worship nearby because a Mosque near there is just some "Victory Mosque"

Disgusting
 
Because this isnt a freedom of religion argument.
No, it is an "argument" that some of the most insensitive and intolerant people on the planet are suddenly being "sensitive", simply because they find it politically expedient to do so. After all, they can't very well admit that the vast majority of the people who are vociferously whining about this are bigoted Islamophobes who even absurdly try to equate Islam with Sharia.

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Ground Zero Mosque Exploits Christian Liberties

President Obama has declared his support for building a Mosque just two hundred yards from Ground Zero, the home of the worst terrorist act in our history where three thousand Americans were killed in the name of Allah.

Why would Muslims want to build a Mosque so close to Ground Zero? Historically mosques have been built in places of conquest as an act of dominion.

Why would Obama support it? Obama was raised Muslim and said one of the sweetest sounds at sunset is the Muslim call to prayer. He even denied America was a Christian nation while in a Muslim nation.

Obama even wrote, "I will stand with them (Muslims) should the political winds shift in an ugly direction." When will he start standing for the American people and the victims of 9-11?

Muslims may have the right to build the Mosque, but it is highly inflammatory for them to do so. They are exploiting the liberty we afford them to honor a murderous ideology that denies religious liberty every where it can.

From this web page:


Link to video.

No true Christian can say the Islam call to prayer is a pretty sound because it is a direct challenge to the truthfulness of Jesus Christ as the word of God.
This is nothing but the Crusades all over again.

History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. Karl Marx
 
300 Muslims who worked at the WTC (note, they are not terrorists) died in that attack. But sure, let's take away from the rights of their friends and family who probably live and worship nearby because a Mosque near there is just some "Victory Mosque"

Disgusting

And a $100 million mosque is the only way to do it.

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I think it's too easy to ascribe the opposition to the Mosque to hatred, I think that pretty much all opponents of this Mosque are motivated not by hatred, but by fear; fear of Islam, fear of the foreign, fear of terrorism, fear of losing their own country's weak and passive culture...indeed it is the fear of the Muslims and Islam which means that, at the end of the day, the terrorists have won, and have done more damage to the USa than those two aircraft hitting those towers ever could.
 
And a $100 million mosque is the only way to do it.

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In case you forgot, it's private property. If you're going to continue to masquerade as a libertarian, you're going to have to realize private property rights trump here. A libertarian (I have my tendencies) must respect private property rights. The moment you start saying "but the government should be able to say where a church / mosque can be built, the moment your username turns ironic.

And further, its NYC, any building costs an insane amount of money. The land alone is very pricey. This is not Oklahoma City.
 
My objection is to building a mosque near ground zero. I dont know how much clearer I can be on that. Muslims, like everyone else, have the freedom of relgion to pray wherever they want. That doesnt mean the current building is a mosque.

So once again, it is proven that Mise's claim was correct. The current issue is with calling the building a "Mosque". Had the builders decided to build the exact same thing, for the exact same function, but never call it a "Mosque" and instead make up a new word for it, you along with many others would not have any issue with it.

Unless you want to go back on your claim that you're fine with Muslims praying in places close to ground zero (some of these places specifically designed for Muslim prayers).



I'm thinking I should e-mail whoever is in charge of this project. "Say you're giving up and not building a Mosque anymore. Then turn around and say that you'll be building a brand new 'Makko', while building the exact same thing."
 
JerichoHill said:
And further, its NYC, any building costs an insane amount of money. The land alone is very pricey. This is not Oklahoma City.

They were actually able to buy the property at a fairly low price, due to other developers not wanting to touch real estate surrounding ground zero. When this initially happened, it was embraced by the community as a "good thing" (tm), cause nobody else was doing anything in the area.

Nobody cared that a part of the building was going to be a mosque.

Until it was picked up as a "story" by that horsefaced "Stop the Islamification of America" lady, then fox news, etc. and made into a "controversy" by right-wing talking heads. That's why it's a "controversy" .. because a bunch of idiots made it so.

And nobody seems to care that the main financial support for this project is the #2 shareholder of FOX NEWS

1. Fund construction of community centre & mosque
2. Create controversy
3. ?
4. Profit

Is that what's going on here, or what?
 
Until it was picked up as a "story" by that horsefaced "Stop the Islamification of America" lady, then fox news, etc. and made into a "controversy" by right-wing talking heads. That's why it's a "controversy" .. because a bunch of idiots made it so.

Yeah pretty much. This ridiculous "story" is a fine example of our media echo chamber at work. "Hey check out this controversy! Get outraged!" *outrage* "Hey look at all the outrage! What a story!"
 
Fox News creates bigotry again, who would of guessed?
 
To be fair, last weekend I was in a hotel room and had a chance to watch some of that strange thing they call cable television. ALL the "news" stations were discussing it, it was ridiculous.
 
Yeah pretty much. This ridiculous "story" is a fine example of our media echo chamber at work. "Hey check out this controversy! Get outraged!" *outrage* "Hey look at all the outrage! What a story!"

The left/democrats have been whipped up into their own pointless outrage as well ;)

We in the West of both left and right are just marrionettes dancing with each other on command, while our political classes compete to sell our countries out to the lowest bidder. [/cynicism]
 
The left/democrats have been whipped up into their own pointless outrage as well ;)

Half my family being of Muslim heritage (Tunisian) I wouldn't really call my "outrage" political, nor would I really even call it outrage. More like disappointment, sadness, frustration, bewilderment... that sort of thing.
 
The left/democrats have been whipped up into their own pointless outrage as well ;)
I would suggest that the response by "the left" (which is to say "both the left and right", but whatever) has been one of bafflement and, as Illram says, disappointment; "outrage" has been left to the foaming proto-fascists (and I mean that in an entirely literal sense), even the mainstream right limiting itself to an admittedly rather nosy concern.
 
The left/democrats have been whipped up into their own pointless outrage as well ;)
"Outrage" by merely standing up to overt bigotry, lack of property rights, and open defiance of the Constitution is hardly "pointless". And it is hardly a "left/democrat" position. But I can certainly see why some from the far-right would want to try to chararacterize it that way.
 
Already commented on earlier.

Because this isnt a freedom of religion argument.

You misquoted the passage where you commented on it, so missed it. And this is a First Amendment Issue, of which freedom of religion is a part, as is freedom of speech. Here are your comments on the question:

They should only be denied if the expected level of violence exceeds public safety concerns.

No one has said they dont have the right to build it there. EDIT: To clarify, I meant to say that public safty has never been a concern for opposing the mosque (that I know of) nor thought of being used as a 'legal' method to oppose the mosque via the law.

And after 2 and a half threads on it, I would have thought the basis for opposing the mosque to have been fairly plain by now. Not that I expect you or others to agree with that reason, but I do think its been mentioned more than a few times.

Your main basis for opposing the mosque is that there is so much opposition to it that they should reconsider the location. That’s it as far as I can tell.

Take the KKK example, something that would have very low public approval, yet is still allowed to happen. Your response to allowing them to march has nothing to do with public opinion, but only centers on public safety.

Both are prime First Amendment issues. Both are protected by the same law. Both have the same rights. But your opposition is different. Why is that? Why are you so inconsistent? Why does public opinion not matter for the KKK, but does matter for the mosque? How do you account for that inconsistency?
 
I don't think there's actually any defense of property rights going on, because I'm pretty sure that there's pretty strong consensus on that front. Many people who object to the building on principle might lift a finger to defend those property rights if the government actually intervened in a restrictive sense.

However, I'm going to assume that I've now been exposed to some of the best objections to the construction. These objections lack coherence internally, let alone when exposed to outside criticism.

If there's an actually viable objection, or even a reasonable cause for offense, I'll keep my eyes open for it.
 
This article does a good job of highlighting the situation, both in this thread and the country at large.

Sensitive Conservatism
Is a mosque near Ground Zero "insensitive"?

One by one, the arguments against the proposed Islamic community center and mosque near Ground Zero have collapsed. A "13-story mosque"? No such plan. "At Ground Zero"? Wrong again. The imam's radical politics? A myth. His shadowy jihadist financiers? Imagined. His failure to denounce terrorism? Debunked. The "angry battle" he's "stoking"? Please. The guy isn't even returning phone calls. The anger and stoking have come from the other side.

So the mosque's opponents have fallen back on one last argument: sensitivity.

"This is an insensitive move," says Sarah Palin. "The question here is a question of sensitivity, people's feelings," says Rudy Giuliani. It's "not just insensitive but provocative," argues Charles Krauthammer. "Those who want to block the mosque are demanding a truly meaningful gesture in 'special sensitivity,' " writes Rich Lowry. Bill Kristol says the proposed location fails to show proper "respect" to the dead. Jonah Goldberg invokes "appropriateness." Karen Hughes, the former Bush aide, says the mosque should be moved because most Americans "don't believe it's respectful, given what happened there."

Feelings about 9/11 are raw and real. Many people, including families who lost loved ones that day, find the prospect of a mosque near Ground Zero upsetting. I've heard this reaction in my family, too. But feelings aren't reasons. You can't tell somebody not to build a house of worship somewhere just because the idea upsets you. You have to figure out why you're upset. What's the basis of your discomfort? Why should others respect it? For that matter, why should you?

This kind of reflection is missing from the sensitivity chorus. Palin says the uproar over the mosque reflects "the wisdom of the people," but she doesn't explain how. Giuliani pleads that some 9/11 families "are crying over this," but he doesn't explore the perceptions behind their tears. Hughes, Lowry, and Goldberg appeal to "courtesy," "decency," and "good taste," but they don't say how these principles apply. Krauthammer points out that Pope John Paul II, "one of the towering moral figures of the 20th century," once moved a convent away from Auschwitz. But that doesn't explain why the convent or the mosque should have been moved.

Kristol seems particularly incensed. He accuses President Obama of treating mosque opponents' objections as "overreactions" and "hysteria" so that their "arguments don't have to be taken seriously." OK, but what's Kristol's argument against the mosque? "Serious people have thought a lot about this," he says. And their conclusion is? "There shouldn't be a 13-story mosque and Islamic community center next to Ground Zero." And why not? Kristol never explains. Like his colleagues, he simply embraces the no-mosque position as a "sensible and healthy reaction."

With the exception of Palin, these are not stupid people. They're searching our sensitivity for an underlying rationale that justifies the exclusion of mosques from the vicinity of Ground Zero. And they aren't finding one.

What they're finding instead is group blame. The destruction of the World Trade Center "was an attack in the name of Islam," says Giuliani. "It was a perverted type of Islam, but a kind of prevalent view that goes on in a lot of parts of the world. So we've got to be sensitive to everybody here." Lowry draws a similar connection: "It is true that Islam as such is not responsible for 9/11, but symbolism and the sensibilities of New Yorkers and victims of 9/11 can't be discounted." Krauthammer adds:

“Ground Zero is the site of the most lethal attack of that worldwide movement, which consists entirely of Muslims, acts in the name of Islam and is deeply embedded within the Islamic world. These are regrettable facts, but facts they are. And that is why putting up a monument to Islam in this place is not just insensitive but provocative.”

This is the true thinking behind the anti-mosque sensitivity: Muslims committed the massacre. Therefore, no Muslim house of worship should be built there.

It's natural to be angry at Muslims for 9/11. In fact, it's natural to want to kill them. We've hated and killed each other for centuries. You kill us; we kill you. The "you" is collective. You aren't exactly the infidel who slew my grandfather. But you're close enough.

Seen against this backdrop, the mosque fight represents enormous progress. We aren't talking about killing Muslims or banning their religion. We're just asking them not to build a mosque near the place where they murdered thousands of our people. "Putting the mosque at a different site would demonstrate the uncommon courtesy sometimes required for us to get along," Hughes suggests. In turn, "this gesture of goodwill could lead us to a more thoughtful conversation to address some of the ugliness this controversy has engendered."

But if our revulsion at the idea of a mosque near Ground Zero is irrational—if it's based on group blame and a failure to distinguish Islam from terrorism—then maybe it isn't the mosque's planners who need to rise above their emotions. Maybe it's the rest of us.

Once we recognize the sensitivity argument for what it is—an appeal to feelings we can't morally justify—there's no good reason why the Islamic center shouldn't be built at its planned site, in the neighborhood where its imam already preaches and its members work and congregate. Asking them to reorder their lives to accommodate our instinctive reaction is wrong. We can transcend that reaction, and we should.

By all means, let's have a thoughtful conversation about Islam and its place in the United States. Let's ask the imam what he means when he says sharia is compatible with the U.S. Constitution. Let's confront the reluctance of Muslim clerics, including this one, to denounce Hamas. And let's demand transparency in the fundraising process so extremists don't finance the new building. Moving the building farther away from Ground Zero won't advance any of these discussions. It's the wrong fight. Let it go.

http://www.slate.com/id/2264754/
 
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