Political Prediction Thread

No it doesn't. The RCP average is at Clinton+3.7 in Florida. There's nothing magic about a 4-point swing in 4 months, nor is the average of Michigan polls particularly close to Florida ones. I do agree that assuming the states will come in the same order with the same margins in 2016 is rather suspect: I expect Florida and Virginia will be somewhat more Democrat than they usually are relative to the national average, while Pennsylvania comes in slightly more Republican; not sure about Ohio, Iowa, New Hampshire, or Colorado at this point.

The thing with projected national swings overall though is a 4 point swing means different things for different demos. For Trump to win he would need to turn out whites massively in a way that hasn't/wasn't expected. All of the demographic fundamentals suggest it will be difficult to do so in heavy minority states where turnout is expected to increase. A 4 point swing nationally doesn't have the same concentrated effects in every state. And I know Michigan isn't given a high chance of flipping Republican (its given a 90% chance of staying Dem this election by 538) - but for Trump to actually win he would need to be able to pull numbers heads over heels with white voters in a way where. Playing with the demographic model on 538 a bit shows that for Florida to turn red with expected demo turnout changes, Michigan would be close in play as well [but still slightly after Florida] if Trump managed some massive uneducated white turnout.
 
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From this 538 article: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features...e-the-white-population-has-declined-the-most/

Primarily Hispanic voting changes could lead (if things go as projected) to a change in the popular vote carry margin by nearly an entire percent.
 
But if you predict your tipping point state correctly, campaign there, and then win by a wider margin than the next one, which is your tipping point state?

Doesn't this whole thing assume that each state has voters of equal cost to swing, with each voter as a percent of the margin of victory being marginally more expensive as the last, for the concept to matter?

It's a moving target, so you can't just identify one state as the most likely tipping point and campaign there exclusively, or it will stop being the tipping point and some other state becomes more likely. Rather you'd pick about 6-8 most likely tipping points and devote most of your campaigning to those states, adding or subtracting from that list as new data comes in. Which is essentially what happens anyway.

The thing with projected national swings overall though is a 4 point swing means different things for different demos. For Trump to win he would need to turn out whites massively in a way that hasn't/wasn't expected. All of the demographic fundamentals suggest it will be difficult to do so in heavy minority states where turnout is expected to increase. A 4 point swing nationally doesn't have the same concentrated effects in every state. And I know Michigan isn't given a high chance of flipping Republican (its given a 90% chance of staying Dem this election by 538) - but for Trump to actually win he would need to be able to pull numbers heads over heels with white voters in a way where. Playing with the demographic model on 538 a bit shows that for Florida to turn red with expected demo turnout changes, Michigan would be close in play as well [but still slightly after Florida] if Trump managed some massive uneducated white turnout.
I agree that Florida's likely to be unusually weak for Trump because of the very large Hispanic population, especially because a lot of historically Republican Cuban-Americans are likely to be turned off by his anti-immigration rhetoric and will likely flip Democrat. This likely will be partially offset by increased turnout and support by non-college-educated whites, which Florida also has a lot of, but the effect among Hispanics should be substantially stronger. My best guess has Florida moving from about 3-4 points more Republican than the nation to about 0-1 points more Democratic than the national average, while Pennsylvania goes from about 2-3 points more Democratic to about 0-1. It is quite possible that Clinton could end up winning the election by winning Florida while losing Pennsylvania, and at the moment her odds actually look slightly better in FL than PA.

The "blue wall" effect, with Florida possibly added to it, means that Trump may need to win the popular vote by 1-2 points to win the election. He hasn't been near that lately, but it's certainly not impossible that it could happen.
 
To whatever extent it can be believed (there aren't that many recent state polls, for one), the RCP average is at Clinton+2.3 in PA, compared to Clinton+4.6 nationwide, so I don't see why PA would be especially unlikely to flip in a situation where the national vote is tied or has a very slight Republican edge. It did go for Kerry in the Reps' only popular vote win since 1992, but Trump's running a campaign that is unusually popular among white Rust Belt inhabitants, and the current numbers suggest that PA will be about as tight as the other battleground states.

Granted it probably won't flip because the election will probably feature a significant Clinton edge nationwide, but I don't see why you're so confident about it.
You answered your own question;)
It did go for Kerry in the Reps' only popular vote win since 1992
This fact perfectly illustrates my point. The Republican pipe-dream on PA is that it is so close that it will flip if the election is close, or if they win the popular vote. It's simply untrue, and has been proven so. Even when they win the popular vote they still lose PA.

And your (and the Republicans') continued faith in the "rust-belt", (which basically means Appalachian whites, right?) is misplaced. PA has about 12 million people. The Philly-metro area accounts for around 6.5 million of that, and the Pittsburgh-metro area contributes another 2.5 million. The T only has 3. So even with 50% turnout, the urban 9 million outvotes 100% turnout in the rural 3 million by a mile. That is why PA will not flip, the "rust-belt" just doesn't have the warm bodies.

The other reason(s) I am so confident is anecdotal. I have a ton of family in OH and western PA (Pittsburgh) and I've spent my entire life driving across that state, visiting small towns, crossing the Alleghenies, driving through the tunnels, staying in hotels, eating at small town restaurants, sleeping at rest stops, listening to the truckers' CB chatter, etc. I have probably been to as many or more PA towns than the towns of any other state, including states I've lived in. I have also as I've said, been to Pittsburgh countless times, and I lived in Philly for many years.

Based on that experience, I'm telling you... there just aren't enough people in "upstate" PA ("the T") to overcome the MASSIVE populations of Pittsburgh and Philly... PA is not like an east coast/Atlantic state where the cities are surrounded by smaller cities and endless moderately populated suburb after suburb. The state is Philly, Pittsburgh and a lot of endless uninhabited mountains, farmland and forest, and not much else. The Republicans will win the T as they always do, but there's hardly anybody out there, so it won't flip the state under any circumstances.
Trump will crack some of the ice near Philly and own upstate.
Yes to the second thing, but that's normal for Republicans. To the second thing... No, for the reasons I've already given. In short, there just aren't enough people in the T to overcome the metropolis.
 
Yes to the second thing, but that's normal for Republicans. To the second thing... No, for the reasons I've already given. In short, there just aren't enough people in the T to overcome the metropolis.
The metropolis has different components. Trump gets enough cracks that PA goes red.

J
 
This fact perfectly illustrates my point. The Republican pipe-dream on PA is that it is so close that it will flip if the election is close, or if they win the popular vote. It's simply untrue, and has been proven so. Even when they win the popular vote they still lose PA.

And your (and the Republicans') continued faith in the "rust-belt", (which basically means Appalachian whites, right?) is misplaced. PA has about 12 million people. The Philly-metro area accounts for around 6.5 million of that, and the Pittsburgh-metro area contributes another 2.5 million. The T only has 3. So even with 50% turnout, the urban 9 million outvotes 100% turnout in the rural 3 million by a mile. That is why PA will not flip, the "rust-belt" just doesn't have the warm bodies.

The other reason(s) I am so confident is anecdotal. I have a ton of family in OH and western PA (Pittsburgh) and I've spent my entire life driving across that state, visiting small towns, crossing the Alleghenies, driving through the tunnels, staying in hotels, eating at small town restaurants, sleeping at rest stops, listening to the truckers' CB chatter, etc. I have probably been to as many or more PA towns than the towns of any other state, including states I've lived in. I have also as I've said, been to Pittsburgh countless times, and I lived in Philly for many years.

Based on that experience, I'm telling you... there just aren't enough people in "upstate" PA ("the T") to overcome the MASSIVE populations of Pittsburgh and Philly... PA is not like an east coast/Atlantic state where the cities are surrounded by smaller cities and endless moderately populated suburb after suburb. The state is Philly, Pittsburgh and a lot of endless uninhabited mountains, farmland and forest, and not much else. The Republicans will win the T as they always do, but there's hardly anybody out there, so it won't flip the state under any circumstances. Yes to the second thing, but that's normal for Republicans. To the second thing... No, for the reasons I've already given. In short, there just aren't enough people in the T to overcome the metropolis.

I looked at the data from the last four elections, and it doesn't really support this. Defining Philadelphia's metro area (within PA) as Philadelphia, Bucks, Montgomery, Chester, and Delaware Counties, I found that only 34.1% of the state's total votes in 2012 lie within that metro area. The Philadelphia metro area is slowly becoming more Democrat leaning and slowly growing relative to the rest of the state, but the rest of the state (including the Pittsburgh area) is on average becoming more Republican even faster. Over the past four elections, the net Republican shift of the rest of the state has outweighed the relative growth and slight Democratic shift of the Philly area, so that the state has become slightly more Republican compared to the national average over the past four presidential elections.

The relative margins statewide were 3.66%, 4.97%, 3.05%, and 1.52% more Democratic than the nation as a whole in 2000, 2004, 2008, and 2012 respectively. A crude extrapolation of the vote trends in the Philly area compared to the rest of the state along with its relative growth would predict it to go 1.33% more Democratic than the nation in 2016, and if anything this may be an overestimate, given that it seems Trump is unusually popular among Rust Belt voters.

"Rust Belt" as a term is usually used to refer to the western part of the Northeast and the eastern part of the Midwest. Roughly, it's everything west of the BosWash megalopolis, east of the Mississippi, and north of the Ohio and Potomac except that West Virginia is often included. It's the old manufacturing heartland of the US, most of which has suffered a slow and grinding decline with deindustrialization over the last few decades. All of PA except the Philly metro area and maybe some immediately adjacent areas would be included in most definitions, I believe. I'm talking about all of these voters including urban ones, not just the rural areas of Appalachia. Of course the people Trump has been winning over have been nearly all white, so when I talk about voters swinging I'm implicitly talking about the white ones, but this includes white voters in Pittsburgh and its suburbs as well as in smaller cities.

Here is the graph. It's four crude Excel plots of only four points each, so I wouldn't pay very much attention to the equations of the trendlines or their correlations. The top line is Philly metro vote share as a percent of the state total, the upper middle one is the average margin in the Philly area compared to the nation as a whole (the (D-R) percent for the region, minus the (D-R) percent for the nation), the bottom one is the same margin for the rest of the state, and the lower middle one is that margin for the whole state. You can see how the non-Philly line dips rapidly more negative (R-leaning) over the past two cycles, as the other two D-leaning trends pull the average up more slowly, so the average trend is slightly Republican.

Spoiler Crude Excel graph :
Tit0JZo.png


As you can tell, I'm thinking in an almost purely data-driven way about the election, partly because I just like stats and partly because this approach has been pretty successful so far with US presidential elections. I don't doubt your anecdotal experiences, but I don't put a whole lot of weight on anecdotes (including my own) when there are stats to play with.
 
You could also say that states have a soft cap and that Pennsylvannia's soft cap is around +2% Dem, and in reasonably normal circumstances won't go below that for Dems. That would explain the 2004 outlier
 
Possibly - I mean they are a bit less elastic than average, which provides a little assistance in close elections. The unusually large drop in 2012 is probably a bad sign, but it could just be a fluke of some sort too.
 
Yes elastic was the word I was looking for
 
I looked at the data from the last four elections, and it doesn't really support this. Defining Philadelphia's metro area (within PA) as Philadelphia, Bucks, Montgomery, Chester, and Delaware Counties, I found that only 34.1% of the state's total votes in 2012 lie within that metro area.
Your data seems reasonable, but ultimately I'm saying that the urban-metro population is large enough, (and Democrat enough) that increasing turnout in the rural areas won't be enough to flip the state under any circumstances this cycle.

I'm also saying that the Republicans have, for decades now, engaged in a ton of hand wringing and prognostication and spilled enough digital ink to fill the Great Library of Alexandria, doing exactly what you are doing... trying to convince yourself that PA can flip. It can't. You can't talk PA red. It is a close state, and it will stay close, but it's just like the skill crane, you think you can get it but you can't. The Presidential elections have proven again and again that PA is just a money sink for the Republicans.
You could also say that states have a soft cap and that Pennsylvannia's soft cap is around +2% Dem, and in reasonably normal circumstances won't go below that for Dems. That would explain the 2004 outlier
This is a much more concise way of putting it.
 
You could also say that states have a soft cap and that Pennsylvannia's soft cap is around +2% Dem, and in reasonably normal circumstances won't go below that for Dems. That would explain the 2004 outlier
Note the word "normal". This is not a normal election.

MN, WI, MI and PA are a waste of time/resources for him as they will never flip. The rest of those states he can certainly win.

He wins PA. WI and MI are past the tipping point but doable. No one can ever guess what MN will do.

J
 
MN, WI, MI and PA are a waste of time/resources for him as they will never flip. The rest of those states he can certainly win.
If it was a Romney style republican I would agree. But with Trump it wouldn't surprise me if PA's margin was similar to Virginia or Ohio (even if it doesn't swing)
 
Given that there are about 16 weeks until the election, Trump needs to get going if he allocates 1 week for each state on the list.
He's gonna do what the Republicans always do, flush the lion's share of his time down the toilet campaigning in PA and spend most of the rest in FL and OH. The other states will be an afterthought.
 
Senate seats on the line in all of them!
 
But nobody wants to campaign with Trump. Senators running for office usually clamour to campaign alongside the party nominee, but not so this cycle.

Usually, they want someone from their own party.

He's gonna do what the Republicans always do, flush the lion's share of his time down the toilet campaigning in PA and spend most of the rest in FL and OH. The other states will be an afterthought.
No Republican has ever spent more than half his time in any one state, much less Pennsylvania. No recent candidate has spent the most time or money there. There is no way to construct this as accurate.

Florida will likely get the most time. It's the biggest and has a really large minority population. That said, it is also the reddest of the big states. Ohio and Virginia will get a lot of time. Pennsylvania is relatively easy.

J
 
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